Ban Halal / Kosher meat?

[MaisyMooCow]

Following on from a most interesting thread this week regarding the Burqa which touched slightly on the subject of Halal....

Recently on a visit to KFC I read a notice at the till saying that all the meat served at this branch met with Halal standards. This disturbed me somewhat as I don't personally agree with this method of slaughter. I visited the KFC website for further info and was relieved to find out that the meat is still actually slaughtered in accordance to EU standards but a representative is present to recite a verse of the Qu'ran to make it halal accredited.

However, at the end of the Burqa thread a poster mentioned that in the Netherlands they will soon be voting against the halal slaughter method currently practiced there. I am confused ....surely as part of the EU this shouldn't be allowed in the first place if they are being compliant with the EU rules on slaughter methods. Do members of the EU only follow the laws as and when it suits?

Does this mean that there are abattoirs in this country that could be practicing this slaughter method too illegally?

Surely, in order for animal welfare standards to be met and to satisfy the needs of the Muslim community all that is needed is what is currently practiced at the KFC suppliers, a verse of the Qu'ran recited?

LDNMummy and EricNorthmansMistress

Your comments on here showing your lack of tolerance over oher people holding differing opinions to your own and your ability to hold a grudge over the slightest thing only serve to make me more glad that I do hold the views that I do (which are not exactly radical) and convince me all the more thoroughly that you are the misguided ones.

In other words, you do nothing to promote your views well at all.

RitaBix Thu 14-Apr-11 10:54:05
All newzealnd lamb is halal. Is every slaughterhouse over there run by muslims?

No Rita, but it ensures that the meat can be supplied to countries that are predominantly muslim.

What the fuck are you talking about nijinsky? I can only assume you are bringing over bad feeling from the burkha thread because I really haven't disagreed with you or been intolerant to anybody on this thread. I don't hold any sort of grudge at all towards you or anyone else on this thread.

The only comment I have directed at you is 'Nijinsky - sounds horrible. That's not how it should be done.' I didn't doubt you at all. I have been to Morocco more times than I can remember (DH is Moroccan) and I have also seen horrible sights. As a vegetarian (did you miss that?) and an atheist (did you miss that too?) I abhor animal cruelty and I see no need for religious doodahs, but as the mother of a half moroccan child I had to accept that a sheep would be bought and slaughtered for his esbour and wanted to make sure I was ok with it. That's where my anecdote came from.

But sure, that doesn't fit with your preconception of me, so feel free to ignore it all if you wish

In the strictest form 'halal' meat should be the most humane method, the animal should be treated with great respect throughout its life and just before its death, offered water and killed in a quiet and peaceful manner with a single cut from a sharp blade.

As with all traditional slaughter methods this has been watered down and mass slaughter falls short of these ideals.

The majority of meat that is labelled halal is pre-stunned in the UK, muslims who specifically want meat that has not been stunned have to use a select number of butchers that specifically offer non-stunned meat. The meat labelled as halal in supermarkets is stunned.

I think there should be better labelling but I don't think this will happen.

I don't want to eat Halal meat. It does seem to be creeping into the supermarket. do we have a choice or is it going to be inflicted on us to appease the minority.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaahahahaha

Halal meat is occasionally available in some larger supermarkets. They may have one or two options in amongst the many many many types of non halal meat. It's called market forces - if there is a demand, then they will supply. Nothing to do with appeasing anybody. Supermarkets aren't in the business of being PC, they are in the business of selling products. So as long as the majority want non halal meat, the majority of meat sold will be non halal.

Can I suggest if you don't want to eat non halal meat you just don't buy it? It's really not hard to find...

Actually Eric it may be hard to find in some areas. The entire meat counter in my local Asda is all Halal.

The sign above it reads 'Halal'. If we want non Halal we have to go to the pre-packaged stuff on the shelves.

I agree however that supermarkets are only in it for the money and market forces determine what they sell.

Obviously stunning the animal rather than keeping it alive to bleed to death is more humane. The idea that bleeding to death is like going to sleep is a bit of wishful thinking I'm afraid.

Those most keen to support the role of religion in food preparation seem keen to find excuses and changes of subject.

Yes some other animals are mistreated, but they are in both cases so this is irrelevant.

Yes you could eat just vegetables, but so could the halal meat eaters so that is also irrelevant.

Yes there was a time when we didn't have the stunning option, but we do now so that is irrelevant.

It's been suggested that all halal meat comes from well treated animals. That is pure fantasy.

Someone seemed to be arguing that most people will already have had halal meat without knowing it so it's too late to have an opinion. Very weird.

We have people saying if you don't want halal meat then don't buy it. Good advice, but insufficient as we may well think that deliberately harming animals is wrong even if we don't eat it afterwards.

That isnt actually true Eric, there has been meat not labelled as halal being sold in supermarkets (there was a big hoohah about waitrose doing this).

As a muslim this is no benefit at all to me. I can only buy and eat it if it is clearly labelled as halal with a certificate displayed showing the accredited slaughterhouse etc. So it isn't done to appease the minority.

Supermarkets driven by price will buy a load of halal meat when they can get it at a good price, mix it up with non halal meat packaged with nothing about the method of slaughter on it anywhere to be seen.

It is just an instance of supermakets wanting to maximise their profits.

People who don't want to eat halal meat should campaign for better labelling, perhaps a similar system to the halal certifcates where the meat in the chiller cabinet has a certifcate showing where it was slaughtered and the contact details of the slaughterhouse. Then just the same as muslims phone up and check that the meat is halal, people could phone up and check that it isn't.

littleducks People who don't want to eat halal meat should campaign for better labelling, perhaps a similar system to the halal certifcates where the meat in the chiller cabinet has a certifcate showing where it was slaughtered and the contact details of the slaughterhouse. Then just the same as muslims phone up and check that the meat is halal, people could phone up and check that it isn't.

Ridiculous.

Popular chains such as KFC use mass produced chicken which has lived in misery for far longer than it spends on a slaughterhouse conveyor belt.
We don't buy Dutch or Danish pork products because the welfare standards are terrible compared to in the UK - pigs have a similiar level of intelligence to dogs and are kept in intensive battery conditions in the Netherlands, so they need to address that alongside banning halal and kosher meat.

Stunning should (IMO) be a minimum standard, but that doesn't address the wider animal welfare conditions before it even reaches the abbatoir.

We need to look at animal welfare standards as a whole and not pick out the bits that just pertain to one religion.

Why Maisy? Slaughter is slaughter, I don't know why meat eaters think that their non halal slaughtered meat is all sweetness and light an never associated with cruelty

If you give a fuck about animal welfare, then buy meat from a source where you know the animals are treated well. If you don't - then buy supermarket meat cos you have no guarantee, whether it was killed in halal tradition or not, that the animal was treated humanely.

read here for more info

"The idea that bleeding to death is like going to sleep is a bit of wishful thinking"

Really? What does it feel like, then? Do tell us.

I bled to within an inch of my life on the operating table and didn't know it. When asked "How are you feeling? Talk to me." (in hindsight, trying to keep me conscious) I said "Maybe ease up on the tranquilizers in IV, because I will go to sleep in a minute".

Given the choice between having a slit throat and or being zapped with high voltage electricity, I can't say which I would choose. They both sound equally unpleasant and neither sound significantly more humane than the other.

I'm also not sure if the animals are truly unconscious or just paralyzed. The latter would be truly awful. Maybe someone can explain it a bit.

Cote unless someone on here has been zapped and slit then I really don't think anyone can truly explain it.

I agree.

Nearest is big electric shocks and excessive hemorrhaging. The latter feels like dozing off. Onager says it is "wishful thinking" to say that is what sheep may be feeling when bleeding out. I would like to know what she thinks it feels like and how she knows that.

My apologies for confusing fastedwina and ericnorthmansmistress on my previous post.

Maisy- why is it rediculous?

Just assuming that meat that has no specific halal marking on isn't obv hasnt worked. Would it not be a good thing if all meat was labelled as where it was slaughtered?

Maybe it is different in your area but here the halal KFC, the halal McDonalds and the relevant chiller cabinets in tesco and asda display a certificate that says where the meat was slaughtered (unfoturnately not where it was farmed but its a start).

If all meat was labelled where it was slaughtered would it not be helpful?

What would be more helpful then?

The supermarkets cant just label things as 'halal' they dont have the authority to, instead they rely on the HFA/HMC who inspect and maintain the register of slaughterhouses. Also often they use halal slaughtered meat in a non halal products, like ready meals, which could have say halal slaughtered chicken and then a white wine sauce. So it couldn't be labelled as halal but if you wanted to avoid halal meat you would need some way of knowing.

Surely the object of labelling is so that people whose religion dictates that they can only eat Halal or Kosher meat, means that if it is not labelled, it could be either, and to the people who are not Muslim or Jewish, it doesnt matter if it is halal or not.

Non-muslims and non-jews are not restricted to eating non-halal meat.

CoteDAzur You are right. I don't know what it is like and nor do you to die by having someone hang you upside down and cut your throat. The difference between us is that I'm not pretending that I do.

squeakytoy, you may have missed the point if you think it doesnt matter if it is halal or not to non muslims. Read some of the posts and you will see why.

We instituted procedures in this country to make slaughter less cruel. It may well be that we don't go far enough. I'd certainly feel happier if animals were treated better than they are and we should be working towards that.

So it it really NOT acceptable for a religion to say "hey we want to go back to being more cruel because our god likes it that way".

Religions are always trying to rewrite laws to suit themselves. We're still repairing the damage the catholic church has done with their view on child abuse and how it was okay if a priest did it.

If you can't abide by UK laws and morals then find a country which is more suited to your 'needs' I for one am tired of the demands for special rights and privileges.

nijinsky - 'Your comments on here showing your lack of tolerance over oher people holding differing opinions to your own and your ability to hold a grudge over the slightest thing only serve to make me more glad that I do hold the views that I do (which are not exactly radical) and convince me all the more thoroughly that you are the misguided ones. In other words, you do nothing to promote your views well at all.'

well nijinsky that is exactly how I read your posts on the other thread. For someone who claims to be well educated and well travelled you show a remarkable intolerance and ignorance to say nothing of prejudice - just saying. You were so rude, antagonistic and patronising to the muslim ladies trying to give their thoughts and views on the Burka thread.

fastedwina there is a difference between putting forward your views and being childishly sarcastic and deliberately creating arguements. Its called tolerance. I was not rude, antagonistic or patronising. Sometimes people have their views challenged. People's reactions to this vary. I would suggest it is something you are not comfortable with. However I find it not a tad racist to suggest that Muslims are less capable than people of other religions of having their views challenged. Some people would say that challenging their views in a non-threatning manner is in fact inclusive.

As for halal meat, I do not wish to eat any meat which is not stunned before slaughter. Neither do I wish to go to excessive lengths to do so. I would prefer that the Dutch position is adoped here.

onagar - Actually, you are pretending to know what it feels like to bleed out, since you call my guess of going to sleep "wishful thinking".

You were all those things IMO and certainly not tolerant - no matter what you might claim otherwise. I very rarely get annoyed by a poster that I would react like this.

If it is just the stunning that concerns you nijinsky then it is simpler, the halal meat used by supermarkets /KFC/McDonalds is prestunned then slaughtered with a cut to the jugular vein and 'Bismillah' said.

Extract taken from FAQ on ASDA's website.

"Do you sell halal meat?
Yes, we currently offer halal lamb and chicken in order to meet the demands of the 1 million Muslims who live in the UK. We also offer other ranges of ethnic foods, such as those found in Hong Kong and Kingston, Jamaica. Allow me to assure you that the slaughter process has been carefully set and is regularly monitored by our Product Development Team. Halal lamb and chicken sold in ASDA stores is supplied by reputable companies. Our suppliers use the head only electron stun method for lamb and an electric water bath is used for chickens."

SOURCE: www.asda.co.uk/corp/customer_service/FAQs.htm
(Scroll down to company policies)

Meat which is not stunned before slaughter is the minority of halal meat and is normally marketed specially as being unstunned. The only place you would probably come across it is at 'National Halal' who have counters/small shops in some Tescos and one ASDA but they are very clear about what they sell.