Ban Halal / Kosher meat?

[MaisyMooCow]

Following on from a most interesting thread this week regarding the Burqa which touched slightly on the subject of Halal....

Recently on a visit to KFC I read a notice at the till saying that all the meat served at this branch met with Halal standards. This disturbed me somewhat as I don't personally agree with this method of slaughter. I visited the KFC website for further info and was relieved to find out that the meat is still actually slaughtered in accordance to EU standards but a representative is present to recite a verse of the Qu'ran to make it halal accredited.

However, at the end of the Burqa thread a poster mentioned that in the Netherlands they will soon be voting against the halal slaughter method currently practiced there. I am confused ....surely as part of the EU this shouldn't be allowed in the first place if they are being compliant with the EU rules on slaughter methods. Do members of the EU only follow the laws as and when it suits?

Does this mean that there are abattoirs in this country that could be practicing this slaughter method too illegally?

Surely, in order for animal welfare standards to be met and to satisfy the needs of the Muslim community all that is needed is what is currently practiced at the KFC suppliers, a verse of the Qu'ran recited?

Oh, I don't know.

In rural Italy, it's standard to slaughter an animal by slitting the throat. I ate lamb that had been killed this way there, so I can't complain. I can't get huffy about it when I eat meat and presumably if you eat at KFC, you probably aren't that arsed about chicken welfare the rest of the time.

I would also bet, most of the people demanding it be banned, have eaten in Indian restaurants, or have had kebabs... which are guaranteed to be halal meat.

YABU and misunderstand EU law.

EU law has backed Kosher slaughter (and through extension of that Halal slaughter). The most recent case was specifically Kosher slaughter and it was recognised in EU law as a legitmate and as humane method of slaughter in comparison to the current conventional methods (personally, don't see how electrocuting an animal can be epitome of the humanity, but it had to be compared to the current EU laws). Every few years, a group tries to faff around in EU courts to ban it, it makes big news, causes uproar, but it still gets backed by the EU and I seriously doubt that is going to change in the near future. Some countries had banned prior to the EU ruling, and I don't know of any to challenge it (as most likely the population that would have needed it had moved on) and individual countries make their own laws on these things, but as for the EU as a whole, no, it's legal and backed as a humane method of slaughter.

As I understand it (and I have read a lot about it as I subscibe to the charities, Animal Aid and Compassion in World Farming although their publications horrify me), halal requires the animal to be conscious as its throat is cut and it is bled to death. This is so that it can recieve the benefit of prayers which are recited over it.

In my opinion, cruel and vile and not acceptable in the name of any or all faiths ridiculous version of what god wants. In spite of claims that the animal suffers no extra stress or pain, this is not supported by most reputable vetinary studies.

No racist overtones, I couldnt care less about what prayers are recited or in whose name. They can sprinkle fairy dust if they like. I am interested in animal welfare.

And before the inevitable questions, yes I am veggie, yes I avoid animal products so please dont level in my direction, any of the insinuations which have already crept onto the thread, of hiding racism behind animal welfare concerns

YANBU in your observations and neither, btw, was activate when she said that there is a pro-Islamic and an anti-Jewish vibe going on upon this forum.

There are far more illegal practices going on in British slaughterhouses of all types than will ever be admitted to. If we were genuinely civilised we wouldn't be eating meat at all. Given that the majority do it is more than reasonable to insist that it is killed with the absolute minimum of pain and trauma.

However I won't be happy until every slaughterhouse is closed down.

I have eaten halal chicken from a halal branch of KFC and it did taste different. I'm sure I was imagining it but it tasted metallic.

I'm pretty sure that what ever the slaughter method (at least with cattle) the animals are killed out of sight from animals waiting to be killed, and carcasses kept separate again.

Kosher meat is killed by slitting the throat. The carotids and jugulars are severed meaning the brain loses its blood supply and ceases to function long before the animal bleeds to death. For meat to be kosher the animals need to be 100% blemish free, so no ill or lame or otherwise damaged animals are accepted. So welfare is a priority. Remember the meat is worth more if sold as Kosher. Remember that when you buy a supermarket chicken with brown marks on its hocks. these are burns from it sitting in its own urine. They sit cos they mature too fast and get so heavy their little legs give way. They're in urine cos they are shoved in barns or cages when they're small, and then not cleaned out till after the animals are slaughtered.

If halal and kosher slaughter methods are banned, it may continue illegally, or meat will be imported from abroad (Argentina for Kosher). Either will result in meat from animals kept in worse welfare conditions.

Don't care as the end result is the same - dead animal. Nothing I've read seems to indicate that halal slaughter is any worse than the normal way.

EricNorthmanMistress "but I saw the sheep up to the slaughter, he was a very happy sheep, and my DH told me how it was done, the knife is extremely sharp and severs the spinal column immediately. All in all it was the best death the sheep could have had. I know that commercial halal abbatoirs won't all be like that but I do believe the principles of halal slaughter are acceptable."

I saw similar when I was in Morocco recently but all I saw was a sheep being dragged through the streets of Tangiers, actually screaming and struggling so much two other men had to come and assist. It definately knew what it was being taken for and was one of the most dirturbing things I've seen. Yes, the knife may be sharp but you don't actually believe that the animal stays still without struggling so that it can be placed in the most accurate position?

Particularly the sheep knew what was happening to it because sheep are herd animals and it was singled out of its herd and dragged through a town to the place of slaughter.

But can I also point out that if there were more local abattoirs, some of the long distance transport of animals for slaughter could be avoided.

IMHO it is utterly barbaric to bleed animals to death without at least stunning them first. If we have better methods available to us then it is the least we can do to honour the animal giving up its life to feed us to use them.

Agree with nijinsky about having more local abattoirs. But I believe that the move towards fewer larger units was influenced by EU regulations, the unintended consequences of tighter regulation - smaller abattoirs didn't have the income levels to afford the investment required.

nijinsky your Morocco experience is so sad, quite upsetting to read. I hate knowing these things go on.

Feel the same way about bull fighting too but that's another argument!

www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter.html

Nijinsky - sounds horrible. That's not how it should be done. This sheep in particular had spent several days on the flat roof chilling out, then it was quietly handled and slaughtered at dawn. That's really common in Morocco as most families buy a sheep at Eid.

I do think its better to keep animals with their herds as long as possible, but to hide the slaughter from them as much as possible.

IMHO transporting animals to slaughter anything other than short distances is just as cruel as halal slaughter.

Most slaughterhouses I believe have a grazing field where the some of the luckier animals can wait a few days. Also means they are less stressed so the meat should taste better and they don't lose condition.

I'm a bit funny about meat. I can't eat lamb. I definately don't eat kebabs, KFC, MacDonalds and takeaways. I am very selective about which beef I eat and from where. And I only meat perhaps once a fortnight at most, and thats because I need it. But equally if vegitarians wanted it banned, I wouldn't object.

I think because I've spent so much time with horses, I can be rather empathetic towards animals and their body signals and language, but that sheep in Morocco knew exactly what it was being taken for. Sheep are very intelligent and it definately knew and was screaming. Its really upsetting me right now.

Having been in EU abattoirs to check HACCP/Food safety I have seen animals slaughtered by both methods and to be honest neither was pleasant or less cruel then the other, the Halal slaughter hse had the animals in a nearby field and brought in from there so they were slightly more relaxed then those who were stunned as they were held in a pen, also not every animal who was 'stunned' was actually 'stunned' so it was not always 'less cruel'. I don't think I can honestly say one method is better then the other but then I may have just seen a team who were not great at stunning the animal.

Who on earth does that job. You would really have to be detached from life!

I once watched a programme about an abattoir and actually the kosher and halal methods looked the most humane. I can't remember the full details but I think it was the kosher animal that was led along a covered corridor so that it had no idea where it was going so was unstressed and then it was killed very quickly with a very sharp knife almost instantaneously. In contrast the non-religious stunning was undertaken by less skilled slaughterers and appeared often haphazard and cruel - the stunning wasn't always effective or done properly and the animals would be hanging from one leg thrashing about in terror - really horrific. The religious slaughter seemed to show much more respect for what was taking place and to show concern for the animal concerned. I think it shows that good practice is what matters and respect for the animals more than anything. I'm an atheist and am happy to eat meat that has been killed humanely from any religion.

OP - I haven't read the whole thread, and am probably repeating here but if you are so concerned about animal welfare then why are you eating at KFC?

" halal requires the animal to be conscious as its throat is cut and it is bled to death. This is so that it can recieve the benefit of prayers which are recited over it"

No, actually, this method was recommended at the time is so the animal does not suffer unnecessarily. There was no way for animal not to be conscious, as there were obviously no stun guns.

I have watched quite a few of these ritual killings as a child. The animal is hung upside down. A swift and deep gash is made to its throat and it bleeds out in seconds.

As I said on the other thread, my one experience of excessive bleeding made me think that bleeding out would feel like going to sleep.

LoveLeonardCohen I wasn't eating there. I was stood at the till with my friend who was actually ordering. (Actually, I did have some fries)

*nijinksky, you "need" meat?

Need?

Really?

' It definately knew what it was being taken for and was one of the most dirturbing things I've seen.'

Nijinsky - i thought you spouted a load of shiiiite on the Burka thread but this is a gem. Of course it knew what was coming - you know that for sure.

"""No, actually, this method was recommended at the time is so the animal does not suffer unnecessarily. There was no way for animal not to be conscious, as there were obviously no stun guns.

I have watched quite a few of these ritual killings as a child. The animal is hung upside down. A swift and deep gash is made to its throat and it bleeds out in seconds.

As I said on the other thread, my one experience of excessive bleeding made me think that bleeding out would feel like going to sleep.""""

Any by muslims for muslims website that I have ever visited state that the animal must remain concious to recieve the benefit of the prayer. There is a word that is was used but i cant remember it. If you are suggesting that in the past, it was recommended that an animal be conscious to avoid suffering, at a time when there was no stunning , that doesnt make sense, as there would be no point to the recomendation.

There is also a concern that as stunning might lead to irreversable unconsciousness, which would be indistinguishable from death, and as carion is not allowed ,then stunning would not be permissable.

"""It definately knew what it was being taken for and was one of the most dirturbing things I've seen.'

Nijinsky - i thought you spouted a load of shiiiite on the Burka thread but this is a gem. Of course it knew what was coming - you know that for sure.""""

And you fastedwina would know that a conscious animal having its throat cut experiences neither pain nor fear, having presumably had your own throat cut or having had a conversation with a cow?

I've never been on a Muslim website but was born & raised in a Muslim country to an entirely Muslim family tree, and what I know is that animals are killed that way to minimize their suffering.

I was trying to say that the animal was inevitably conscious when this method was recommended (as there was no stun gun at the time), and that the Halal way of a swift deep cut in the throat and hanging upside down is done to kill quickly and without unnecessary suffering.