to prefer the french way: less mat leave, cheap childcare?

[dreamingbohemian]

Actually I'm still unsure about this, would be interested in others' opinions...

We are moving to France shortly and will be putting DS (1 yo) in nursery a few days a week. Delighted to find it will cost us only 10 euro/day (much less if DH can't get a job right away), as opposed to the 40-50 pounds/day it costs here in London.

Also have the option to put DS in free pre-school FT from 2.5 y.o.

But on the flip side, apparently French women only get about 3 months paid maternity leave.

Obviously this is a moot point for us at the mo, but I'm thinking about it as we may end up having another child while living in France -- or we may come back to the UK.

Which system do you think you would prefer?

I kind of think the French system is not only cheaper but offers more flexibility, but then again I was really happy not to have to go back to work at 3 months...

My DDs are at maternelle in a small village in Brittany, and I was just thinking over the last couple of days how lucky we are to have this school. The staff are lovely, and the DDs seem to enjoy all the activites (stories, painting, PE, starting to read etc.) I work full time so they are at school / after school club from 8 a.m till 5.30 every day, so obviously sometimes they get a bit tired but mostly they just waltz into school without looking back!

If you are on the waiting list for a creche, I would call / visit regularly or you may stay at the bottom of the waiting list for ever! In some towns the mairie has an influence on creche admissions, and they may be someone you can pester speak to there.

dreaming
Well, lait de croissance is just milk with added vitamins and iron. It is no massive issue to give it to toddlers or not. Some Brit mums don't like it because it has added sugar as the iron taste would be unpalatable otherwise. If your toddler gets a balanced diet, he probably doesn't need it.

But here it is standard and creche staff get very defensive about it and struggle with parents who don't want their DC to have it.

I couldn't really care either way, TBH, but it was just an example to illustrate that creche staff are not trained to respect parental choice. Instead, they expect the DC to fit in. And they'll make no bones about telling you if you are "deviating" from their model of parenting.

Three months ml is tough, especially if you are breastfeeding. I found it exhausting. I have a supportive workplace but ebf a hungry 6 month old when you're full-time is demanding. I'd prefer more ml but even if you can afford to stay off longer, I am not sure it's really encouraged at all. Neither did we want to put a 4 month old in childcare so luckily DH could take unpaid leave.

My dd is now in a childminders, so only a max of three kids there(we're in 74, so not the same issues as Paris). The childminders' social charges were automatically paid by the state, which is why it was such good value-we pay about 560 a month for a four day week but they are changing the method of payment now so I have to pay another 400 a month and they'll decide whether or not I am entitled to be reimbursed. I have a feeling I won't get much back. My 2 Childminders happily fed my babies breastmilk and we sent all meals there.

DS is in a fantastic village school and canteen is an unsubsidised 5 euro a day. Not cheap! But it is great food, locally sourced and very balanced. We have seen a great improvement in table manners and willingness to try new food since he started cantine.

Greythorne's Discription of crèche is not what I have experienced with French childminders. I imagine it can vary greatly.

Winnybella
I honestly don't know how the creche staff would handle a toddler who poles up fresh at their creche knowing how to drink from a cup and eat food. I cannot imagine they would force a child to revert to a bottle and purées. That would indeed be dire. But I know that a child who starts off at creche at 4 months would be very likely to still be drinking from a bottle at 2 or older.

Remember, there's absolutely no societal / medical pressure here to bin the bottle at age 12 months. Feck, I have a French friend with twins who is chuffed to bits that they have just stopped their nightly bottle of milk.....they are in Moyenne Section (aged 4.9).

Milk in a bottle is considered superior to other foods, even for toddlers. Another friend has a 21 month old who is chubby. She saw the Paed who wants to put the little bot on a diet (!). Her advice? Cease all solid breakfast and give him one bottle of milk in the morning. Lait de croissance, natch. Paed says if he can't finish a full bottle (because he's no longer used to drinking lots of milk these days. He eats porridge and toast!) then add a spoonful of chocolate powder. The bottle still holds powerful sway here.

usuallydormant
I quite agree. I would opt for an assistante maternelle before a creche everytime.

at paed's advice re:diet. Ffs.

I have to say that my dc pead is great- all for bf as long as we want, didn't think lait de croissance or iron supplement was necessary as DD was eating very well- the only thing she insisted on was a vit.D supplement, twice every winter- although I always forget to give it to DD.

Now that you say that, I do recall seeing older toddlers with bottles at playground. Odd.

Well, the chances of her getting a place at creche from Sept. are tiny anyway. She's going tomorrow for 2,5 hrs to jardin d'eveil downstairs- I have to say I'm a bit worried as it's her first time and also she doesn't speak French yet-just Polish and English, although she might have picked some up from watching Oui-Oui and from DS

Winnybella
good luck to your Dd tomorrow

We also have a fab Paed who does support breastfeeding, co-sleeping, etc Clearly it's not impossible but we did have to shop around at the beginning and our current, lovely one was the fourth one we consulted.

All this stuff about the French creche diet is very interesting because in this country I am sure it is the Dordogne-holidaying Francophiles who are most likely to be lobbing bits of bread and cheese and fruit at 8 month old Jocasta and Peregrine. (I don't know why I am being snotty about this because I was doing that with my dd and have always tried to encourage her to eat "real" food) (I can't afford to holiday in the Dordogne tho but, well, maybe we just about could one day with a big tent)

Winnybella, good luck today! Hope your DD has fun.

Greythorne, thanks for explaining about the milk Now I know what you mean, my MIL mentioned we should get this when we go there.

Am curious, do you think the creches are also quite rigid when it comes to sleep?

DS is still taking two 2-hour naps a day, the boy loves his sleep! just wondering what the french attitude to napping is...

Yes, sleep is usually timetabled at creche! They often have a sieste after lunch. Sleeping outside of sleep times is, well, not going to go down well. If you find a good assmat they'll be much more flexible but you have to check really, really carefully. That would be my 2nd choice and creche my last, but we're planning to 'import' a nanny anyway, as I can't face the early starts.

Hope you're DD is gettin on splendidly at the jardin d'eveil, winny :)

I've been spoilt by my hippy MW!

Not sure whether post-natal care is fab or not as I suspect it depends on what you want....

I was an au pair in Paris, and found it very odd that their toddler still had bottles of milk (and some kind of milk-soup) instead of meals, with one meal of mush a day. The father was always going on about how important food was to the French too I thought they were just a bit weird, but obviously it's common.

She's ok, I think. I'm glued to the kitchen window, listening for her (jardin is downstairs) crying for mummy, but nothing so far

winny step away from the window!

I know, I know...

very few people take the whole year dont they? I only took 7 months

kind iof agree with whoever said that you heed to work out costs BEFOREHAND

Id love a 3rd but we cant afford it, simples!

but agree its pretty tought that in the UK from 0-3 you are own your own for ccare costs

Winny I'm sure she's having fun!!

Frak, I see what you mean about postnatal, how it depends on preferences...
For me, the idea of a private room to recover in sounds appealing -- last time on the ward I was quite embarrassed trying to hobble to the loo while dripping blood everywhere, dragging a catheter, in front of complete strangers

But then I hear they're not as good in France about supporting BF so that could be a downside.

Partly I'm envious of a friend of a friend who recently had a baby in Paris, by CS... like me she had horrible problems with fluid retention after and they sent someone round her home to give her a course of special massages, which apparently worked wonders, really helping her mobility and recovery.

I need to do a lot more research though

You don't necessarily get a private room, though. In my hospital even if you want a private room (and your mutuelle will cover it) you're put on a list at admission - you can't prebook :( - and a CS is a double room near the nurses station for 48 hours of monitoring....

BF it depends on the hospital. I've deliberately chosen to avoid my most local one and the one I'm actually going to is working towards being a maternité amie des bébés so understandably very pro-BF.

Ah that's great you have that option!

Here in UK I was actually sitting in my living room less than 48 hours after my CS... my French MIL was horrified but I was sooooo happy to be home!

That's good to know about the private room thing. Starting to realise I should take everything I'm reading with a keg of salt

I think, like anywhere, it totally depends on your local hospital and their policies tbh. The difference is that I think in France you get a lot more choice over where you want to give birth (within reason) but the maternités get booked up very quickly. I know at certain hospitals you can book a private room, for example, so I guess it partly depends on layout too.

48 hours after a CS you'd be lucky to have your drip and catheter out here. They want to keep me in for a week if I end up with one, we've bargained down to 5 days

Well the fact that maternity pay stops when baby is three months doesn´t mean that mums are being forced to return to work then, does it?

I would say that the French system seems quite geared to helping mums return to work.

UK-not so much!

Technically your maternity leave stops and you're only eligible for additional congé parentale if you've been with your employer a certain amount of time.

The postnatal hospital stay is much longer in France. Even uncomplicated intervention-free births can see you stuck for 5 days.

They also often make you stay until the baby has regained birth weight. DS took 3 weeks EBF to do this, so obviously had we been in France something would have to had to give, and in most French maternités it would have been the breastfeeding.

Also, SIL went to super duper maternité with private rooms, who took the baby away except for feeding times. This happened to another friend as well.

I remember looking at SIL like she'd gone mad when she asked if I booked my hospital room yet. And then looking even more when she asked if I'd booked my epidural. Compulsory visit by the anaesthetist to discuss it in France. At her maternité if you hadn't arranged it in advance you didn't get one.

Compulsory anaethetist visit indeed at 8months, regardless of whether you want one or not. Biggest waste of an hour of my life....

An hour! What on earth do they ask you?

For my CS I reckon the anesthetist had about 10 minutes notice, he coped just fine

Flingon, where do they keep the babies if they're not with you?