to prefer the french way: less mat leave, cheap childcare?

[dreamingbohemian]

Actually I'm still unsure about this, would be interested in others' opinions...

We are moving to France shortly and will be putting DS (1 yo) in nursery a few days a week. Delighted to find it will cost us only 10 euro/day (much less if DH can't get a job right away), as opposed to the 40-50 pounds/day it costs here in London.

Also have the option to put DS in free pre-school FT from 2.5 y.o.

But on the flip side, apparently French women only get about 3 months paid maternity leave.

Obviously this is a moot point for us at the mo, but I'm thinking about it as we may end up having another child while living in France -- or we may come back to the UK.

Which system do you think you would prefer?

I kind of think the French system is not only cheaper but offers more flexibility, but then again I was really happy not to have to go back to work at 3 months...

That is the situation in Australia- very little paid leave but child care is subsidised. Not as much as in France but it is very unusual to be in the position where you can't afford to work because of cc costs. The less you earn the more you are subsidized.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think it is good that women have the chance to work and are not trapped at home because of the cost of cc - as I often read about on mn. But I think it discourages women from staying home with little babies and normalizes very early cc - which I think is not good. I also think our cc is generally cheap and nasty. The ratio for babies is one carer for five babies at the moment, although it will change to four soon.

Violethill - my experience as well. I too had read the views on when is best for a child to be first going into childcare. My MLs were as follows:

DC1 - 6 weeks
DC2 - 3 months
DC3 - 4 weeks

The last was possible because DH took redundancy and became SAHD (best decision ever).

My experience was that a short ML worked well for me as well as DCs. I didnt get used to being at home and doing lots of ML activities. I had CS for all three so just got over that then went straight back to work.

From experience I would now take recommendations with a pinch of salt. Obviously DH was/is the best option. The CM we had for DC1 was excellent, the advice she gave me I would have thrown back in my own mother's face but would take from her. The CM we had for DC2 was highly recommended and expensive but we were never happy with her.

Okay I probably should have learned a bit more about French child care before posting

Thanks for additional details!

And yes, I should have said it's income based, we will be fairly low income, and also not in Paris.

Winnybella that sounds incredibly frustrating, I'm sorry to hear that

There won't be a problem with school places in Brittany, but crèche places can be hard to come by, depending on where you live.

State run nurseries can be big and too strictly routine and conformity based for my liking but the two crèches associatifs (run by parents) that my DC attended were lovely and very accommodating.

Although about creche fees, you didn't have to pay when on holiday for up to around 6 wks (french holiday allowances are generous!). Whereas here we pay 50wks a year

Thanks castille, that's good to know!

We'll be in Nantes, apparently for the district we will be in they are not too oversubscribed.

(I know, Nantes is not technically in Brittany anymore )

It's great to hear as well from you ladies who went back to work after just a couple months, just to know it's not the end of the world

Gnome 4 weeks! and after a CS as well, wow. I couldn't even get my shoes on at 4 weeks

Winnybella
We are in 92 and lots of state maternelles round here limit canteen days! I think it is common in the burbs.
Quite amazing.

Maybe I just got lucky with DS's maternelle and primaire.

Lots of people I know told me that they have tried all the tricks imaginable to get a place in a creche for their dc, like sending Christmas cards or pics of the kids on holidays to the directrice

I'm just about to call the creche to make sure DD is on the list before they get together in May to decide who will get the 2 or 3 places that are left. DP tells me to go there and use all my charm

DD will also be over 3 when she starts maternelle-3.7.

dreaming
you may well be fine to get a creche place in Nantes

I think outside ile de France the provision is more in line with demand. In Ile de France, you have to sign up for a creche place during early pregnancy and even then there is no guarantee at all.

But be aware that a French creche (state or private) is going to be rather different philosophically than a UK daycare set up.

I decided against a creche - not because I could not get a spot - but because I could not get my head round their vision of childcare.

But that's a very personal choice and you might come up trumps in Nantes. Just check that you know what you are getting.

Also you won't get child benefit for just one child - it starts at two and is less than in UK. But for three or more you get more than in UK.

Could you elaborate a bit, Greythorne? My friends say that their dc love going to creche. I thought maternelle was ok- the usual of outdoor playing, being read to, painting, singing, trips to the park etc.

Can you tell me a bit more about the creche, please?

winnybella
yes, I am always astonished how the personal touch can make all the difference here; a friend has been on a waiting list for a garderie for 18 months. Not heard a word from them in all that time. Last week, she went in and asked to meet the directrice. Did a load of buttering up. Praised the staff, the directrice, the works. Two days later, she got a call to say a place had become available. Coincidence?

Ok...I guess then I better go there tomorrow-dress DD up and be all brown-nosey Arrrgh, I hate doing that.

... or how about the Dutch way. You still only get the 16 weeks maternity leave (you are obliged to start it 4-6 weeks prior to your due date though) AND your creche will set you back loads (unless you are earning fairly low). I pay 1308 EUR/ month for 4 days a week.

On the plus side, I like my work and was happy to go back at 12 weeks. DD also seems to get on OK at the creche. The Dutch system has parental leave too which is a bank of hours that you can use (unpaid time) but you can effectively go part time for 4 years, still get pensioned on FT work hours and you are protected to go back to the FT too after it.

We're moving to Austria now and while I was excited to hear kindergrippe were 200 Eur a month... we find they mostly only take >1 year olds and they are also hugely oversubscribed/booked out; so it will again be much more expensive caring until she is a bit older. Shite but there we go.

We're in 974 and childcare here is horrifically oversubscribed, CNs are usually unregistered and expensive for what they are, you need to have put your name down around 6 months hefore you're due. And maternelles will take from the September of the calendar year you turn 3 not before. Also if you don't get in at 3 you're looking at not getting a place until CP

16 weeks full pay, yes, but 3 weeks enforced leave before your EDD and none of the fringe benefits like free dental care for a year!

Also if you're considering having another in France do research the whole pregnancy/birth experience and philosophy as it's rather different.

Lucky you OP!

Friends who came back from France keep saying how good the childcare is there: availability, price and quality. The british system seems oppresive in comparison!

(actually they go on about everything; the food, the working hours, everything seems much better and more sensible there) .. Im off!

What is the quality of care like? I know lots of European countries have very high ratios of babies to carers - I think 1:3 is only just alright, more than that is quite worrying.

Mmmm it's not great quality overall IMO but it varies hugely. I personally find it very collective, strong on rules, routines and norms and intolerant of 'alternative' parenting (reusable nappies, extended BFing) in that they say it won't be accommodated and there's no discussion.

Also the lack of compulsory regulation means there are some serious horror stories which aren't just stories out there about CMs. Babies crawling out of open gates etc...

I agree, Frak.

I dislike the emphasis on fitting the child into "collectivité" with very little flex in the system to accommodate the individual needs of the child.

If you want your baby to drink expressed breastmilk, or wear sort slipper type shoes (rather than rigid-soled ankle boots), or be allowed to drink cow's milk (rather than lait de croissance) above the age of 1, you might find the crèche inhospitable. Washable nappies and babyled weaning are unheard of, IMO. Dummies, transition objects and bottles (of milk) are not so much tolerated as mandatory at the creche. If your child turns up for adaptation without a well worn dou dou, you will be viewed as A Very Negligent Mum. There's no perceived need to wean off bottles before the age of 3 (...or even 4 or 5).

Creche staff tend to pride themselves on inculcating "autonomy" in quite tiny infants (ie 8 months old taught to tilt their bottles themselves and left to feed themselves, with arm's length supervision) and they are merciless re sleep habits.

All depends on how open you are to the "ends justifying the means" approach when it comes to your baby! The results are invariably awesome: creche babies sleep for precisely 2 hours every afternoon, eat their puréed food without question etc. Personally, I could not hack their methods. But then I'm a soft touch :) . And if your child is at all a square peg who won't easily fit into their round hole (and I am not talking SN, just a child who needs lots of holding and cuddles) then your child might not hack it either.

Bu maybe that would be true of daycare in the UK, too?

Have a look at this; made me think.

But surely a 2.7 yos are not made to eat purees? Or drink lait de croissance? Or drink from a bottle?

Not sure if it's a creche thing but DN ate purees til 3, and drank lait de croissance from a bottle until 3. Actually it was banania from about 2ish to over 3.

This is really interesting... thanks ladies!

Frak, I am reading a bit about pregnancy and birth in France, although it's all a bit hypothetical at this point. From what I have seen so far there seem to be some pluses, some minuses....I have read that deliveries are much more medicalised in France, but then as I would probably be over 40 and I had a CS last time, I might be looking at that anyway.

I've heard that the postnatal care is fab

I hadn't heard this about the creche conformity. Hmm.
Don't much like the sound of that but then again it will probably only be for a couple days a week, and I think we are probably already raising him a bit French (DH is French)