To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

YouaretooniceNot, was your toddler remark aimed at me?

Nailak I'm getting a little worried now. What about when someone like me, in running gear of shorts and vest, passes Muslim men whose wives wear the full burqa? Do they consider me fair game because I am not covered?

I find it extremely odd (and rather disheartening, tbh) that someone could be up in arms on one thread about people looking and "tutting" at her DC because of his race and/or abilities, yet be so pleased to deny religious tolerance to others.

Smacks of hypocrisy...

Nailak, im curious. Do you judge then girls in skinny jeans and Hijab as not really being true Muslims? What does it take to be a true muslim? I've seen plenty of girls in makeup, jeans an hijab - is there a hierarchy?

Nijinsky , you should be able to wear shorts and a vest without harassment. Those who would say things to you about it are wrong.

Unidentified burkha-wearing woman in the OP , you should be able to wear a burkha (if that is your choice) without harassment. Those who would say things to you about it (or give your husband evils) are wrong.

There. Solved.

Guess one of the problems is that some really oppressive cultures and Islam are so mixed up it kind of muddies the waters for many people as to what islam is really about if stripped away from these cultures and looked at as only a religion as interpreted from the Koran - if that makes any sense.

nijinsky What about when someone like me, in running gear of shorts and vest, passes Muslim men whose wives wear the full burqa? Do they consider me fair game because I am not covered?

You made me remember a time I went into a local newsagents. I live in a highly asian and muslim area. The shopkeeper was asian and on his magazine rack was a number of porn mags showing asian women. I found this really confusing. Now, I know that not all asian people are muslim but I know a vast majority in this area are so having that kind of magazine on sale is quite odd.

Nailak, we cannot control the thoughts of others. All we can do is be who we want to be, dress how we want to dress and get on with our lives, living as best as we can.

I have looked at men and lusted (Jonny Depp, Liam Neeson etc.) they are not responsible for my lust, I alone am responsible for that and I do not believe that they should have to cover up in order to protect me from myself.

The law is in place to offer real, not imagined, protection and trial and retribution occur where rights are really infringed.

I hope no one on this thread is PM ing anyone else with insults, no matter how annoying their comments.

Nijinsky - they shouldn't consider you fair game if following their religion properly but their culture and upbringing might believe otherwise.

AFAIK rape and disrespect towards women is against Islamic law. The sin belongs to the wrongdoer, not the victim, therefore men must take responsibility for their own wrongdoing, it is not the fault of the woman in burka or bikini.

Just to let you know that i am reporting the disgusting pigs that have been sending me hate mail.

Above all I am not a racist - yawns - you are deleuded there too.

I shall NOT return to this pathetic thread - sorry OP - i think YADNBU!

Yet you hear of Muslim women who have been raped are stoned to death in Afghanistan.

I have always been tolerant and tried to understand and have a respect for Islam and muslims. Most of the 'muslims' I knew were leading pretty much western lifestyles though and only followed the bits they wanted or had to if they were say back in Iran or somewhere where they had no choice. In the past few years i have made some more traditional muslim friends who dress modestly (hijab) and who practise their religion seriously. TBH what I have learnt and seen has made me go the other way a little but much of that I think is down to the culture as much as the religion, which has tested my once more tolerant views of live and let live. It would be nice to have some proper conversations with traditional muslim women without worrying about being too PC or what is said might offend to get a broader view.

Fastedwina, culture is different from religion. However the two often marry and did do way back. For example in Sub-saharan Africa FGM is common among Muslims, yet it isn't in Islamic north Africa. Also, in Sub-saharan Africa rooting out and punishing for witchecraft is common among some Christians, whereas in Western Christianity it died out over a century ago.

We are fortunate in that our law is there to protect everyone from murder, rape, assault and robbery, regardless of religion, gender, colour and sexual orientation. That is the way it should be.

I will be honest and say i don't think the full face veil should be worn by anyone.
It is an article of separation and i am sure that the rise in women wearing it is more a political statement rather than a religious one.

I also think it is very insulting to men. Too say that men are visual creatures and women need to save them from having involuntary sexual thoughts by covering themselves insults them and puts them on the same level as rutting animals.

Dione - I agree much of my unease is down to the culture (Pakistan in this case) rather than just the religion. But as you say it can be difficult to separate the 2 (if that is what you meant). Through my friends i came to realise that arranged marriage (at age 8), accepted violence in marriage by the family, close interfamily marriage and bullying to conform - is all very common. Honour killings talked of as the killer being stupid for dealing with it in that way where as with family/community pressure the 'girl' would have seen the light in the end - seemed to be no sympathy for the dead girl - just what it meant to the killer and his family. TBH, I'm beginning to wonder if my early views on Islam and what the more serious practicing muslims were a little naive.

"britain has a history of tolerance and multiculturalism. i am more free to practice my reliion here then in many "muslim" countries."

But face-covering is the antithesis to openess and integration. If I am practising Christian, born in Saudi Arabia, it does not make Holy Communion a part of Saudi culture.

The burhka is a bit of a bugger really.

On one hand I want to say a woman can wear whatever she wants and everyone else can just fuck off. On the other it does dehumanise someone when you can't see their face.

Of course I 'can't see past the veil' that is the point of the veil surely.

I have found it difficult to interact with women wearing veils. I have chatted at the school gates, but it is very hard to speak to someone face to face when you can't actually see their face. That is my problem sure. BUT it is a side effect of wearing the veil, all animals look at the face to gauge response and thoughts, it makes us uncomfortable because we are not getting that feedback.

For the same reason you often get a lot more done in a meeting than you do in a teleconference, humans just need to see the face of the person we are interacting with in order to engage fully. Covering your face makes it difficult for people to do this.

If you choose to take this step then I don't think you can actual complain about people not seeing past it.

I don't like it, it makes me uncomfortable but I think on the whole I am more uncomfortable with their being legislation about what women can (or cannot) wear.

'Who the fuck ever held Saudi up as a society to aspire to?' The Wahhabi sect holds up Saudi society as something to aspire to and actively and very assiduously promotes its view of what it takes to be a Muslim - i.e. dressing and behaving and following the rules of Wahhabi-dominated Saudi society which has religious police as enforcers to vigorously oppress those who might like to wear shorts when it's 40 degrees in the shade. To compare the zeal of the religious police in SA with the relatively minor fine and the relatively limited reach of the French police wrt the fully veiled face is ridiculous to the point of being hysterical.

The Wahhabis do not believe in living and letting live. They are aggressively attempting to impose their view of morality on the western world, including upon those Muslims who disagree with them, and whom they consider to be just as much infidels as non-Muslims. This is why many in the west cannot consider the wearing of a burqa or a full veil to be merely a personal choice. The personal in this case is political.

"Why do tits need to be held in a place, surely they find their own place?

Why is it unacceptable, in our culture, to have your tits swinging naturally?

What about crippling shoes? Women in our culture totter about in ridiculous shoes that restrict movement and damage our feet. Why would anyone 'choose' such a painful and restrictive dress code?

Many western women accept these limitations happily as part of our public image, yet the minute the door's shut, the bra is whipped off and it's crocs or slippers."

So well put! I stopped wearing heels and bras in the last couple of years and have never been happier when it comes to my appearance. BTW, bras are actually counter productive in preventing breasts from sagging as they prevent the ligaments from doing their natural job and thusly softening of the ligaments occurs over time. Women in the west by into a patriarchal system under the illusion of equality. That is worse in my eyes as it is devious.

LDN Mummy - I agree with most of what you say here (while still loving my heels and Spanx) but I've seen plenty of women from areas where they never ever wear bras and they certainly look far droopier than their western women of comparable age IMO.
Surely they are called National Geographic boobs for a reason?

If I am wearing sunglasses and someone is talking to me - I usually take them off so they can see my eyes. It's important for me in life to communicate the best way possible with my fellow man.

"Why do tits need to be held in a place, surely they find their own place?"

You don't have to wear a bra in the UK - some women don't. However for woman who have large breasts like myself, wearing a bra is actually more comfortable. When I was younger and very into feminism I refused to wear a bra on principle. As I got older I started to purely for comfort.

Also many many women including myself only wear shoes that fit well and are comfortable.

But really bringing this up in the debate is a red herring. No one wears a burkha or veil because it feels physically more comfortable. And no one wears a bra or tight shoes because of their religion.

And calling them tits in the manner you do just sounds disrespectful.