To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

I found this:

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms in public beyond what may decently be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms. And let them not display more of their charms to any but their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands fathers, or their sons, or their husbands sons, or their brothers, or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their womenfolk, or those whom they rightfully possess, or such male attendants who are beyond sexual desire, or children that are as of yet unaware of women's nakedness; and let them not swing their legs in walking so as to draw attention to their hidden charms. And always you believers, turn to Allah (God) in repentance so that you may attain a happy state."

[Quran Chapter 24, verse 31]

Of course the Qran also says a woman is worth half a man.

t is stated in al-Hidaya:

?A woman may see of another (Muslim, m) woman that which is permitted for a man to see of another man, due to them being from the same sex, and the non-existence of desire (shahwa) between them normally? Similarly, due to the need and requirement of them exposing amongst themselves.? (See: al-Marghinani, al-Hidaya, 4/461).

Therefore, a woman must cover from the navel up to and including her knees in front of other Muslim women.

firstsuper mum, you are super

What a load of claptrap - and there's a man living on the moon too!

njinsky, its not about men bein savaes it is about makin it easier for them to lower their aze and feelin comfortable as a woman that you are bein valued for your personality rather then fashion sense. wearin jilbaab makes me more confident and able to communicate to men as before i would be wonderin about clothes make up etc if i look presentable.

if you ever in east london then pm me

Nailak the ahaadeeth that you give, are presumably similar to laws and judicial precedents here, and are quite ancient?

Therefore the questions arise. Why are such ancient rules and tenets of law not updated to modern conditions? Or why are they being enforced and interpreted so strictly now? After all, we do not enforce laws on witchcraft from the 16th Century here still.

I can see the point in such basic tenets when the trend amongst the less civilised would be towards semi nudity and unbashfulness - it would denote greater civilisation and education. But now, in the year 2011, why should it be necessary for a woman to cover all but her eyes in public? It seems to do no good to anyone and exacerbate harmful attitudes. And being godly and closer to your lord is surely more about atittudes than simply the way you dress.

But this is to suggest that men are savages and unable to conform to the rules of society. And the more you perpetuate this myth, the more men will play up to the notion that they are unable to control their urges around women who are not covered up or absent from public life.

It's not to stop men from raping or sexually assaulting women Granted there are some bonkers clerics who preach that women bring assault on themselves by not covering up, but the reason to dress modestly and segregate the sexes is to avoid thinking about sex to the detriment of your spiritual self, and to avoid the temptation of (consensual!) adultery. Both genders should dress modestly and lower their gaze. That's why prayers are segregated, so they don't look at each other while trying to be spiritual. Islam, like every major religion, is very opposed to extra marital sex and advises its followers on the best way to avoid it, hence dressing modestly and all that.

As I said before I'm ot a muslim but I am married to one and count some very strong, independent, fantastic muslim women as my family so I advocate balance and tolerance. Personally I like thinking about sex and do it as much as possible

you want to arue about the Quran now? do you want to understand and enae or just accuse?

did you not find anythin about the believin man and how he should act towards women? but that would be a whole nother thread, on a different forum.

Sorry I know it's not PC, but I just find full face veils wrong.
I saw a lady in a burka with a pretty little girl a very pretty dress in a push chair and I just wanted to say to her what a beautiful little girl and I bet you are too. It makes me cry to think of that little girl growing up to be ashamed to be seen. She had a lovely smile, but it's hard to return the smile when I couldn't see if her Mother smiled as well.

"men are more visual in their desires and et turned on by what they see, women et turned on by more internal factors, that is why more women then men read mills and boon and more men then women watch porn."

Sorry ,what century was that in?

There is a difference between modesty of dress expected of men and complete coverage of the body expected of women.

Also, I'm not at all sure that there is an actual law stating that naked breast on the street are illegal. I'm sure it doesnt happen much, but not sure that its actually legislated against.

However, burqa supporters always trot out the naked breast argument. Opposers of burqa do not automatically default displays of or support for public nudity. There is a happy medium that most people adhere to, and it is also perfectly possible to dress comfortably and modestly without hear to toe coverage.

So I ask again, why the double standard? Why is it stricter for women? The closest I have seen to an explaination on the thread, is that men letch and women dont (sniggers). But as usual even that becomes the womans resposibility. Rather than men being expected to get a grip and address their sinful lusting, it is of course THE WOMANS FAULT, and she must cover up her devilish body which leads all the poor menymen to sin.

Yes, good old sexism, the backbone of religion through the ages.

But many women brought up in an entirely different culture are choosing to adopt this philosphy. Perhaps they are tired of thinking for themselves?

Who knows. If that's the belief, it's the belief. I don't know enough about it to understand the extent of "cherry-picking" among Muslims, as one gets in Christianity. There must be some, or there would be no difference of opinion.

But it seems very oppressive. I suppose I dislike the burkha as a symbol of this oppressive philosphy.

I find the full head gear really intimidating and don't feel that I can be sociable with women wearing it, I feel like they don't want to mix with me. Often you react to the facial expressions of those next to you which prompts you to make conversation but if you can't see their faces how can you do this?

woman valued for their "personality"?... you are having a laugh... circumcision is also about personality?

it is all about woman being a substandard human being and a property of her father, then the husband. personality my xxxx...

Nailak I'm a lawyer and I've had to study ancient legal systems and the ways in which their development and modernisation facilitates development.

Thank you for your kind offer. I may well do that when I'm down visiting my friend in South London.

It is very worrying that a country like Egypt still needs two female witnesses in a court of law where one man will do.

I think it's very hard to defend except by saying : "It's my religion, that's what the rules are." Like, you know, my country right or wrong. It's very difficult to give any other justification.

njinsky, very few women think wearin niqaab is a must in islam.

as muslims we believe in technoloy etc we are not amish, but we also believe that the first muslims were examples to us, and we should aim to emulate them in certaint thins. this doesnt mean we must eat like them etc, but we should try to emulate them when it comes to worship.

you are riht about attitudes, theres no point wearin a hijab with skinny fit jeans and flirtin with boys and havin water fihts with white tops on in public as i see in my local park, that hijaab may not be doin you any ood. but we believe that to be closer to our lord is about actions as well as thouhts.

i dont wear niqaab, but i admire those who do.

and sex within marriae is encouraed in islam! lol

"very few women think wearin niqaab is a must in islam."

But the thing I just quoted says it's a requirement? If cherry picking is allowed, why object to a ban when you live in a culture where face-covering is by and large considered rather disrespectful?

I mean, in Britain it's even considered respectful to take off your sunglasses when talking to someone if it's possible.

montysma did you miss the bit when i said men are supposed to lower their aze? or did you inore it? they are sinin if they lust, if a dirty thouht about a woman who is not their wife and comes in to their head and they liner and pnder on it then they are sinful. in society we have rules for the reater ood, which makes it easier for all to function.

if you think a man and a women are the same, think the same, act the same etc then fair enouh, but i dont think we are the same. do men read mills an boon in the 21st century or was that only the 7th?

and the womens sexuality bein develish is not an islamic concept, it is not evil but somethin to be valued and not flashed around for the pleasure of anyone walkin down the street.

no the verse you quoted said "isplay their charms in public beyond what may decently be apparent thereof; " and most scholars say that their faces is part of what is decently apparent or normaly apparent

I have friends who wear the hijab(headscarf) and I think this is fine. However I do have a problem with the niqab (full face veil). The reality is that this isolates the person from strangers. When I talk to someone at a bus stop or in a shop for example, I decide whether that person is friendly or approachable from their facial expressions. It is impossible to do that when a woman wears a veil, so it does segregate her from others.

In terms of the type of women who wear the veil, there seems to be 2 kinds.

1. Woman who have no real choice and are pressurised into wearing it.

1. Women choosing to wear it - often they are university educated and in some cases the parents are against their DD wearing the veil. These women often say wearing a veil is "empowering". IMO it is as "empowering" as women who talk about stripping or lapdancing in the same way i.e. not at all empowering.

But of course we shouldn't ban the veil - although it doesn't mean I have to like it!

But I think it is false not to recognise the pressure many muslim women get from the wider community to act and dress in a way that is seen as appropriate. For example, women who don't wear the hijab can find themselves isolated with other parents refusing to let their DD play with the DD of an un hijabed mother.

Most muslim women I have known well are also keen to hide behaviour that they know the wider community would censor them for. For example, muslim women friends on the whole have been happy to socialise in pubs and not drink alcohol, but are very fearful of being seen to go into a pub. With community pressures no-one is directly forbidding a certain style of dress or behaviour,but don't underestimate the impact it can have on both men and women.

sunglass you dont wears them because of religion?????? are you????? which kind of exemple

"hence let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms."

I took the "full-face" requirement from this. Happy to be told I'm wrong. But it means that it's not a religious requirement so really, in a country where it's culturally unacceptable and even seen as offensive and disrespectful, the grounds for protesting against a ban are very much weakened.

It becomes an issue of cultural respect, as with the miniskirts in Saudi or parts of Asia. And as an issue of cultural respect, the laws and culture of the country ought to be looked to for guidance.

firstsupermum I don't understand what you are saying.

"I mean, in Britain it's even considered respectful to take off your sunglasses when talking to someone if it's possible."

Or indeed your hat. Come to think of it, uncovering your head and therefore your face is quite a central tenet of British manners. People tend not to wear hats much now but when I'm showjumping, its still the norm for the first prize winners to remove their riding hats when recieving their prize. Which I think is rather charming.

1/ Walking down the street in normal clothing is not "flashing your sexuality around". Its just walking down the street.

2/ Didnt miss about men not being supposed to lust, and did not ignore it, i suggested that if men and not women (sniggers again) are prone to lust, then men should be adressing their own behavior, not shifting the responsibility onto women.

3/ You are seriously using Mills and Boon as part of this debate to demonstrate differences between the sexes? Really?

its respectfull to take your sunglass when you talking to some one in britain because they are not part of religion any way, but its disrespectfull to ask a women to take her veil off when talking to you because that will be agains her beleive.