children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

[AliGrylls]

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

Niecie, I very carefully and quite deliberately did not say that I thought that about all of those who follow a religion.

"the atheist do like to come on these threads to argue their point. If they have no point what are they doing here?!"

Is this for real? Having no belief is not the same as having no point.

I can't speak for anyone else but I personally come on threads like this because the widespread privileging of faith over lack of faith in our society irritates me greatly. And THAT is my "point".

I still have to keep coming back to the original quote from Prunhilda on page 1

"If you teach a child that their very essence is related to love of Jesus or Jesus's love - how do you then take what is a long-term emotionally-based part of their psyche, and later translate that into 'well you can actually believe what you want' with the ease that is being suggested here?

You have altered someone's psychology by bringing them up in a religion."

if you have a some point told your child that god exists, loves them, watches over them and is a very important part of your family, it is virtually impossible to reverse that.
You aren't allowing them to make their mind up later.

Niecie, are you seriously suggesting that you don't understand why an atheist parent would hold an opinion about a thread that started as a discussion about raising a child with a faith or not?

Crikey. Talk about missing the point.

We have a point. You just keep missing it. And its your application of the word, not the dictionary definition of it that is the problem.

I see you have not answered my rather simple question. I wonder why that is?

Winter,

Firstly, you are confusing atheism with agnosticism. Atheism is the denial of existence of a God, not the rather passive act of "not believing", at least according to both the OED and the sense it is understood by most people that I know. So, in that sense, atheis, has an element of faith to it.

Secondly, re your "flying spaghetti monster" hypothesis, were about 1bio plus people to believe in the said monster, you would probably consider it and take an active position on it. And, the fact that you are on this thread clearly means your atheism goes beyond mere passive "disbelief" or non-consideration of the concept, as it is meaningless.

Finally, "LOL" is not a term much in use in debates by thinking adults. I suggest you cease using it if you want people to take you seriously.

if you have a some point told your child that god exists, loves them, watches over them and is a very important part of your family, it is virtually impossible to reverse that.
You aren't allowing them to make their mind up later.

The churches would be full to bursting if this was the case!! Are you seriously saying that mummy tells them this at 5yrs and they believe it at 10yrs-15yrs -30yrs etc etc and it can't be reversed?!
How come I know ex altar boys, ex Sunday School pupils, vicar's DCs etc who have no belief?

Parents don't have that influence-say or do as they will and their DCs will do exactly as they wish anyway!

There is a thread on parental approval-the one thing true of all posts is there is a lot of parental disapproval and people do it anyway!

I'm really not confusing anything. There's no faith in atheism, thats sort of the fundamental point.

Does "bite me" work for you instead of LOL?

"Firstly, you are confusing atheism with agnosticism." Actually, I think it is you who is confusing militant atheism with non-militant atheism. Neither of the positions you describe is a definition of agnosticism which is a position of awaiting evidence. Thomas the disciple was an agnostic, but I don't think many Christians would describe him as an atheist.

In both words the "a" signifies "without" - one is "without God," one is "without faith." No suggestion in either word that one is actively disbelieving - it's just a lack.

"not the rather passive act of "not believing""

If I raise my son without any religion, then he is not being given anything to believe in. Is that 'passive'? There are people out there who go many years without any idea of there being a god or gods. Isn't that a more natural state than any other?

It seems to me that some of the atheists on this thread are animated more by paranoia about the 'god botherers' and what 'they' are forcing children to do than by a very neutral 'lack of belief'.

Exoticfruits, I agree with your argument that children will go their own way. I think there is also a failure to see how personal and bound up with experience is the choice to either believe or not believe. I don't think anyone is a completely independent, objective and dispassionate actor in any life choice and especially in any parenting decision. The most any parent can hope for is the 'invisible line' and the 'twitch upon the thread'.

wrt society/ law/ morality -- society creates law. Morality is for the individual to develop according to conscience, intellect and experience. Religion (and most philosophies) provide a framework for morality for individuals interested in pursuing it from a philosophical pov. But individuals in any given society create law.

'The fact is, as children, we are all born atheists. We are taught religion by our parents, by our schools by our society. Anyone who manages to avoid or reject what is a fairly strong social conditioning must be a bit of a puzzle to them.' There is a failure here to appreciate how interwoven are Judeo-Christian ideas of personal morality with law in the west; to reject all aspects of Christian social conditioning would be a herculean task. To paraphrase Evelyn Waugh's statement upon conversion to Catholicism -- what you are trying to do is accept the benefits of western civilisation (which boils down to law and the ideal of the rule of law) while at the same time actively rejecting the basis upon which it stands.

you can only reject what is in your power to reject, so the posters statement on that stands. Plus since its really quite impossible to say how much of the law and other things are judeo-christian without having something to compare it to. Not quite of much of it as christians would have us beleive, is my thinking.

There would be law and rule of law without there ever having been a judeo christian tradition in the first place, that much is clear.

And paranoia? You can't argue that society is based on your religion and then accuse of us paranoia when we complain that you are too much in our faces. Which is it then?

People from the dawn of time have been looking for meaning in life. The first people were all born without a religious framework, so they made one. Some people need one and some people don't. I don't think that anyone can say which side their DC will come under.

Children will go their own way, but it is not as simple as that.

If you grow up without being taught a religion as truth, then you have no ideas to shake off should you decide to find out more and want to be part of a religious group once you are old enough to be able to look at it objectively.

If you grow up being taught a religion as truth, then to come out of that and deny something as far as you can remember you always believed, is much much harder.

There are many testomonies from people leaving faiths which they had no choice over once they are adults and the personal struggles they endured. Look at what you are going to leave behind if you realise it may not be true- everlasting life and a watchful protector, look at the deep seated fears even the more benign religions manage to instill.

I am not aware of any difficult journeys in the same sense the other way around, from no belief to faith (I may be wrong). I would imagine if this takes you that it would be a comfort in many ways, no? It would be so nice if my Nan and Grandad had been reunited after death, and my miscarried child was being looked after by my Papa. But it's not real, this life is.

Would you prefer chaos as in some parts of Africa or the rule of some dictator as in Egypt or something like the legal lawlessness of the USSR or the Third Reich? There actually is something to compare western law and the Greco-Judeo-Christian tradition with.

To be fair I did always know it was a load of crap despite CofE upbringing, so I should't worry too much about the moderate amounts of crap=peddling DS gets at his (non-church) school.
But what I wish DC were taught more of, and what I certainly intend to teeach DS as he gets bigger, is the harm done by religion. THe opression of women, the homophobia, the political clout of the big-brand crap-peddlers... DC should certainly learn that along with the myths.

Bringing your child up 'as an atheist' is also foisting your beliefs onto them. I try to bring up mine to know there are many ways of understanding the world and so long as an individual's motivation is generally kind and non judgemental they should be open minded about other people's beliefs, learn as much as they can and decide how they feel themselves as they grow up.

PS We got married in a church and our vicar was an atheist who had a 'moment of divine revelation' in his 20s and amazed his family by studying theology and joining the church. No guarantee raiding children in an atheist family will keep them away from organised religion.

"No guarantee raiding children in an atheist family will keep them away from organised religion."

Assuming you meant "raising" for "raiding", has any atheist here said that a guarantee that our children will stay away from organised religion is the goal?

I mean, I'm an atheist. DS says he's not sure but, on balance, he doesn't believe in God although is interested in Buddhism. DD says she believes in God. That's all cool with me.

Yes - I meant raising.

Glad you are giving a balanced none biased view SCSGB!

What exactly is a "non-biased view"?

Everyone has their own view.

so anywhere without a judeo-christian (though I note you added in greco there, which changes your original point considerably ) system of law is a terrible place?
Biased, moralistic, ethnocentric bullshit.

And what do you think the third reich was based in?

Oh bugger, I missed the third reich reference.

Godwin's Law strikes again!

I wonder why it is that people have such a view of Christian types being "in your face" about their beliefs. Looking at this thread and also the people I have met recently it has been a case of completely the opposite. They keep their faith very much to themselves because they are so aware that their beliefs may upset some people (even if they are not offensive per se). Atheists aren't actually aware that to some, their views are equally offensive (for example, the suggestion that because people have faith they are probably less bright, which I would like to add is clearly rubbish).

Anyway, this thread has gone way off piste. I am not interested in hairy spaghetti monsters or inane arguments about how logical atheism is, when in itself it does require faith (faith in absolutely nothing).

Maybe see you all on my next thread.