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Original poster

children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

814 replies

AliGrylls · 07/04/2011 12:05

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/04/2011 09:44

LarryGrylls,

"1/Atheism is not a logical position, agnosticism is. "
Yes, I don't disagree, I disagree that they are mutually exclusive. Atheism is statement about ones beliefs. Agnosticism is a statement about ones position on evidence.

"2/ Even those who are atheist should realise the positive influence of christianity on Western thought and morality. Glibly pretending that what we perceive as morality today is somehow "natural" is ridiculous. It is a hard argument to make through pure logic. "

Well I had a good go up there.

Also, one wonders who all those pre-Christains ethicists like, I dunno, Aritstotle, Plato and Confucious managaed, or how any of those pre-christian societies managed to come up with such similar ideas and even apply them sufficently to become succesfull thriving societies.

Interestingly, much Ancient Greek moral philosophy is broadly athiestic in character.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/04/2011 09:44

Roseflower - NO SCRIPTURE

Largely for the reasons in your post in fact.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/04/2011 09:46

Roseflower - Religion CAN teach excellent morals. It can also teach very bad ones.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 09:47

Sorry are suddenly the moderator TCNU?

Bonsoir · 08/04/2011 09:47

And exactly why will rampant individualism and rabid propagating of your genes make you happy, larrygrylls?

As I say, intelligent thinking people can work out for themselves that there are better ways of making their life work for them.

Snorbs · 08/04/2011 09:49

"The problem with true atheism is that is hard to believe in a moral framework. If this really is "it", absolutely and incontrovertibly, one might as well steal, cheat and even kill, if one could get away with it."

Ah, the old "only the religious can be truly moral" chestnut. Worraloadabollox.

You could equally say "A christian might as well steal, cheat and even kill, because provided that christian is really really sorry about it God will forgive him and he'd get away with it."

Following a code of conduct because one is fearful of punishment if one didn't isn't about morality, it's simply following rules.

For what it's worth, most atheists form their morals from the Golden Rule - that one should treat others the way one want to be treated. This predates Christianity by quite a long way incidentally.

As such then I would not steal, cheat or murder because I wouldn't "get away with it" - I would have broken my own moral code. And what's the point of having a moral code if you break it?

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 09:50

Larrygrylls is clearly intelligent. Such as a unorginal, tierd old argument- anyone who is religious is well thick innit?

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 09:53

one should treat others the way one want to be treated.

Well then clearly some most wanted to be treated like second class citizens in that case

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/04/2011 09:54

Roseflower - I am ALWAYS the moderator and the bringer or discipline and rigour ;)

Arguing over scripture on these threads is pointless. It doesn't matter to those who don't accept the authority of them, and to those that do the issue is interpretation.

As you said " People dont just blindly follow what a book tells them", so arguing about what the book says isn't very helpfull to this thread.

Arguments about scripture or even 'what a particular religion beleives' should be left to co-religionists.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 09:56

If people choose to bring it up that's up to them. I havent chosen to bring it up.

larrygrylls · 08/04/2011 09:56

TheCoalition,

I am not a Christian and I do not think that Christianity is the only way to come to moral conclusions. Shinto also does a pretty good job of it, as does Buddhism. I said that the Western tradition of morality has a lot to thank Christianity for. You are making a straw man argument.

En passant, Plato suggested incinerating atheists and Socrates referred to "god Or Gods" frequently in his works.

onagar · 08/04/2011 09:57

Of course religion impacts my life. The religions are forcing our children to pray to their god. They have extra votes in the House of Lords because they are relaying god's commands to what is supposedly a democracy. We have all kinds of discrimination by religious people that we have to endure. Anti women, Anti homosexual and so on

All I ask is that they STOP impacting our lives. I don't want to ban religions. Just make them leave us alone.

Atheist v agnostic

The precise meaning of these words has drifted a bit in modern times and I have to use the word that most people understand as meaning what I am.

If I say I am agnostic.. well some take that to mean "doh... dunno really"
Others take agnostic to mean "I fervently believe in god but not sure which one"

So I call myself an atheist. What that means in this case (and in most cases) is that I do not 'believe' that god exists. Not "I believe he doesn't" which is something else entirely.

I wish I'd saved this list from last time, but I am equally atheist and in the same way regarding all of these. They are in no particular order.

There is a talking duck billed platypus
There is a god
If you wish hard enough all wishes come true
There are lots of gods
Odin made the universe
You have a 6ft invisible rabbit who follows you around
Thor has a big hammer
One of the gods is a big monkey

Most of you religious people are atheist about most of those statements

larrygrylls · 08/04/2011 09:58

Snorbs,

Your "Golden Rule" sounds awfully like a commandment!

DuelingFanjo · 08/04/2011 09:59

so what Larry is saying is that even with religion people do really shit things to eachother? So religion really doesn't create a good moral framework for society?

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 09:59

Most of you religious people are atheist about most of those statements

That makes so sense at all

Bonsoir · 08/04/2011 10:01

I don't think that the "golden rule" is anything like a commandment because it requires personal judgment every step of the way.

My MOL (RIP) was one of the most amoral people I have ever met. She also was one of the most principled. So blinded was she by her principles that she just couldn't work out what the right thing to do was!

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 10:02

No. It is does create a good moral framework, you would have to be hard pushed to say otherwise.

The point is you have freewill to choose if you want to follow the framework or not.

Anyone can claim to be relgious. It doesnt provide immunity to immorality.

onagar · 08/04/2011 10:03

Roseflower.

Tell me if you believe all of that list. if there are any you don't actually have faith in then you are atheist for that one.

larrygrylls · 08/04/2011 10:03

Bonsoir,

Well it is not the "Golden Idea" or "Golden Suggestion" is it? Neither is it a mathematical rule based on some idea of a logical argument with QED at the end. It is "Golden Rule" (your caps). That suggests that someone or something made that rule.

Prunnhilda · 08/04/2011 10:04

Being moral isn't a logical or illogical position.
We are animals who function as part of a social group. Animal groups have 'rules'. Morals are those rules dressed in a veneer of language, with added ceremonies to impress the lower echelons.
Groups differ slightly which is why the rules differ (though are broadly similar).
It's got nothing to do with logic. You get ostracised (or imprisoned or worse) if you don't conform to the rules which have evolved for your group.

Snorbs · 08/04/2011 10:05

No, a commandment is a quite possibly arbitrary rule to live by because otherwise God will (metaphorically) twat you with his big stick.

The Golden Rule is a moral choice. There is no implicit punishment for transgression.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 10:06

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any God at all.

I do; therefore I cannot be an athiest.

Bonsoir · 08/04/2011 10:07

"You get ostracised (or imprisoned or worse) if you don't conform to the rules which have evolved for your group."

That is less and less true. Globalisation of people means that groups are constantly infiltrated by newcomers and are aware of the social mores of other groups, which challenge established order and enable people to work out more logical behaviours.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 10:08

However if you only follow rules/morals because "You get ostracised (or imprisoned or worse)" then really it's just the same as only doing it out of fear of punsihment.

larrygrylls · 08/04/2011 10:09

Onagar,

Making ludicrous lists trivialises what could be an interesting discussion. The list is also a compilation of some people's true religious beliefs and plain ridiculous suggestions (such as the white rabbit). We can discount a few of them using Ockham's razor and as for your Norse Gods, you would need an expert on Norse theology (any on MN?) to justify how much of that is literal and how much allegorical. You cannot use Ockham's razor to deny the existence of any consciousness of any for in the Universe. I think that is v hard (impossible) to prove one way or the other. Some may say you could use it regarding certain religious beliefs and I would agree but most atheists seem to think you can clobber all religion of any form with it.