To think if the gov are serious about social mobility they should be banning privately educated kids from taking state grammar school places?

[MilaMae]

Spending ££££ on tutoring to get your kids into a grammar school is one thing but sending your kids to a private school which is free from the national curriculum and able to spend every day teaching to the 11+ is wrong and buys kids school places which should be reserved for the state educated.

Alongside freedom to teach to the 11+ private schools have tiny classes so it's pupils have even more of an advantage. Many of these children won't even be naturally bright and shouldn't even be at said grammar schools.

In our local area apparently far fewer state educated kids got into grammar school this year. Obviously this is due to more privately educated kids applying for places due to parents struggling to pay fees in the current economic climate.

This is wrong. Grammar school should be reserved for state kids only. For many kids rightly or wrongly it's their one big shot at getting a leg up in life. The rich shouldn't be able to hoover these places up because they're feeling the pinch.

You can't put a stop to tutoring but the gov could put a stop to this very unfair practice(if they truely believe in social mobility).It would be very easy to control.

This isn't sour grapes on my part(my dc are tiny) just an observation.

HelenaGrace - no the best thing is to reach in institutions that can teach the full range of ability. That way pupils can receive the most appropriate education.

Helenagrace There is 16 plus entry for those pupils who achieve good GCSE grades, however I've found a lot of these places are taken by kids from the private sector who failed to secure a G/S place at 11.

bubblecoral I have never had my children assesed by an educaional psychologist; but as my son achieved the highest grade in the county in his KS2 SATS results, I think it's fair to say he's academically gifted. (further backed up by his CAT scores and teachers comments over the past 5 years in secondary education).

During this time, both he and my other son, have been challenged all the way through school by their teachers. Regarding social support, I should think the SEN at your local secondary will help your son. I think it is very good for students who find learning easy to spend time learning to appreciate the qualities that other students have. If he is lucky, he will find a kind and supportive group of friends who will help him to develop the social skills he is finding difficult.

Thank you Frumpy, for that very thoughtful post. I hope you are right! My ds (he has aspergers) has been very lucky that he does have a supportive group of other pupils around him at primary, and I guess I'm freaking out a little about how he will cope with the transition to such a big secondary with so many different types of people to get to know.

Btw, do you knwo if it's still possible to get grades for KS2 sat's? That would be interesting to find out! I know ds is already working at 5a in maths, 5b in the others, but those numbers seem very vague!

This government is certainly not interested in social mobility....

Bubblecoral - tis a big step when they leave primary, but it's actually easier if they move up with friends, so hopefully your DS will soon find his niche and settle in well.

Sorry, I dont understand what you mean by "get grades for KS2 sats"? Your sons grades are very high - the standard expected is 4B so he is working 3-4 lsub-levels above that - but there will be others doing exactly the same

BUbblecoral...if you child was that clever they should not need lots of tutoring for the 11 plus. Why do you need to know the KS2 curriculum inside and out????
My son passed the 11 plus, did a few papers and that was it in run up to exam, his school would not endorse 11 plus help. He is doing really well, but some ofhis friends who passed who came from schools that did a lot of practise work and tutoring are struggling. Shame for them and shame their parents did not think through if grammar was correct place

That is the way that it should be done coccyx and if people stuck to it it would be a fair system. Grammar schools are best for the way above average-they are not best for the average DC whose parent wants them to be above average and will pay and drill to get the place.
People lose sight of the fact that passing the exam is the easy (and first bit) and that it is the next 7 years that are difficult and soul destroying for the DC who is struggling to keep up.
You should find a school to fit your DC and not find the school and shove your square peg through the round hole!

I haven't read all of this but social mobility goes two ways doesn't it - in which case private to state should be positively encouraged by all those who are anti elitist - surely it will do the overprivileged brats good to mix with those who are poorer and less well educated.

If private schools before 11 are doing a better job of getting children into grammar schools perhaps the state sector should take some lessons from them. This should be an argument about improving education for every child and significantly raising standards in the state sector and giving it back the power and funds to permanently exclude, appreciately one size doesn't fit all and reintroducting zero tolerance for poor behaviour and respect for teachers.

We have done state and indy - huge differences in expectations and actually, (and I hate to say) in the professional conduct and expectations of those who work in them. At the indy we don't see flip flops, we don't see cargo pants, we don't hear teachers moaning about the children and likewise we don't see rude and unruly children, there are no signs banning them from local shops and they don't run through the streets eating and swearing.

I agree with you coccyx, which is why I was determined that I make my ds do loads of practice at home or struggle to find the money to pay a tutor. I knew that there would be children taking the test that had been over tutored and are likely to struggle when they get there.

But for this particular GS, the pass mark is very high, higher than others, and the letter we got when we were told he didn't have a place actually stated that the candidate that was offered the last place was four marks above that. So tutoring does make a difference, because children are not only trying to get a pass mark, they have to get a high pass mark to be sure of getting a place.

Also, when I called the school to get ds's individual marks for the separate tests, I was told that the test is based on the whole of KS2. Children who are at schools that endorse the 11+ or that have tutoring are obviously going to be at an advantage. The test is taken in the Autum term so there will be children that are very bright but simply haven't covered all the things they are likely to be tested on.

Frumpy, thanks again, I don't really understand the whole grading system of SAT's. Percentages make it much easier to know how well you child has actually done!

Oh no, there goes the debate. Once people start going on about cargo pants and flip flops and how all Independent school pupils are models of decorum and good behaviour while state school pupils run througn the streets eating and swearing I lose interest. It's impossible to argue against such deep rooted prejudice. Not even a morning sitting in Costa in our local town - the proud possessor of every sort of school imaginable - including Steiner - and comparing the behaviour of actual real teenagers will shift the preconceptions.

To those of you who will intensively tutor your children through the 11+ will you do the same through GCSE's and A Levels?

You only have to listen to the language of our local privately educated teens to have your eyes opened. I went past some the other day who were discussing a fellow pupils mother and I almost wanted to intervene-the swear words and sentiments were appalling! There is also a bigger drug problem-they have more money. People seem to like to ignore this and pretend it doesn't happen-fairly easy because they have the ability to talk correctly when they need to!

And in answer to hardhatdonned-yes people do tutor through GCSE's and A'levels in both comprehensive and grammar. (Some grammar schools have to run remedial lessons for those who shouldn't have got in).

Private schools have a good earner doing revision courses for state pupils in the holidays. I passed our local public school (hight performing) at the weekend-a huge banner was out advertising them and I bet they are oversubscribed.

People do the best for their DC and I don't see that holiday courses, moving to the right area etc are any different than paying for private schools.

To buy a house in the 'right' catchment area, pay for tutoring and then moan about private schools is hypocritical.

YABU. Grammars should be open to all children or the reason for their existence is lost. Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

The thing to do is to make the exams as little susceptible to advantage from tutoring as possible.

Our local grammar (outstanding/ top of the league) counsels against tutoring, insists it fails to give material advantage in the entrance exam, has no noticeable drop-out group which fails to keep up and takes broadly the same percentage of children from private primaries as there are in the popuation in general.

No doubt its social mix is slightly confined but that has to do with those entering for the exam as much as anything else -the same difficulty that some top universities face. Which is why some grammars are increasingly operating increasingly broad outreach programmes to try to encourage kids from the less leafy areas within reach of the schools to apply and not be deterred by the spectre of 'posh'.

The head of St. Olave's recently pointed out that popular comps were becoming less meritorious than grammars: places secured by purchasing power of parents able to buy in to the expensive housing nearby.

The way this country, parents are going to be penalised for any social or educational advantage they procure for their children. Prison, perhaps, for parents who purchase anything that could help their children along?

Bonsoir - The problem isn't so much with parents procuring advantage, it's with institutions pandering to it while pretendind to egalitarianism.

Grammer schools, succesful comps, succesfull faith school all pretend that they are equally open to the disadvantaged as well as the middle/upper classes. This is a lie. They all have entrance requirements that are significantly easier to meet if you have more resources. (Tutoring/buying a house in catchment/time and willingness to profess a faith).

So these school receive funds that are supposedly to help all/the most disadvantaged and use them to fund the well off.

Private school pupils - toffs and potential drug abusers.
State school teachers - flip flops and cargo pants.

That's two on my bingo card - now just waiting for my children to be described as bait for predatory paedophiles in the private system and I've got my full house.

I agree Coalition.I think a few abuse the system.However instead of knee jerk reaction(which this gov like to wade in with) and fancy slogans I think a long term plan needs to be carefully thought out whilst perhaps chipping away at smaller issues like the abuse of grammar schools and internships.

Although I don't like the system I think there is perhaps a place for grammar schools for the few that should be there.

Coalition what do you think should be done?

I don't know an immediate answer however I don't think a lottery system is the answer either. Different schools suit different kids and we as parents we know our kids best so should have a say.If you bring in a lottery system the only parents who will have a say on their dc's education are the rich who will vote with their feet(something the rest of us can't do). Also not all areas near good schools are expensive(our area we have several and prices don't really vary,houses are expensive in the whole area) and people need to be part of a community and kids need to attend schools with their friends.A lottery system destroys all that just to counteract a few abusing the system.

I also think it's not just the disadvantaged that are missing out here but the so called squeezed middle(not the upper middle who quite frankly if they can afford school fees are rich,Jesus 8K a child). Dp and I have(along with an increasing number of other families) 3 degrees between us,both work however camp(Centre Parks my arse)and live very frugally,increasingly so. Paying the bills is quite frankly it. There is no money for tutoring let alone private education.There really isn't.The gov should be trying to help these families too not just a small group they continuously mention because it sounds good.

This gov looks after the rich,makes token gestures to the poor(which actually do very little) and screws the middle not just in education but everything else.

Not hiding from my inevitable flaming from the above but popping out so will return later.Have read some very interesting points from both sides.

By "expensive" I meant more expensive.

I don't think we can put the blame on schools for being very good and therefore making house prices in their catchment rise.

Unless, perhaps, we think that all schools should be made equally bad, with schools that, for whatever reason, improve should be penalised? This happens in France, btw, and is one of the reasons that parents increasingly send their children to Catholic schools.

If you get free school dinners you get extra points in the 11+ is that what you want ? How insulting, plus my privately educated children would qualify in that scenerio so there's no accounting for all cases.

Mila what exactly do you contend the 'abuse' is with grammars? I'm also curious about the source of your information.

My own view is that there a lot of extraordinarily impressive headteachers out there in those schools, passionate about defending the system they see as providing a meritocratic education for the relatively able, vigilant in making the tests as fair as they can and keen to promote applications from all social bands which at the moment means persuading the less well off that the grammars aren't ghettos for the undeserving over-tutored sharp middle class (is that a cliche by now?).

Bonsoir I don't think the head of St. Olave's was apportioning blame. He was merely making the point that in his view St. Olave's has a more meritocratic entry system than the popular comp he previously led (I think in N. London).

mama FSM kids get extra points? Not at our school they don't.

Actually, if there was a way of stopping the middle classes fiddling it, I don't think I would object to FSM children getting a point or two extra on their 11÷.

But the middle class would fiddle it, so it wouldn't work.