To think if the gov are serious about social mobility they should be banning privately educated kids from taking state grammar school places?

[MilaMae]

Spending ££££ on tutoring to get your kids into a grammar school is one thing but sending your kids to a private school which is free from the national curriculum and able to spend every day teaching to the 11+ is wrong and buys kids school places which should be reserved for the state educated.

Alongside freedom to teach to the 11+ private schools have tiny classes so it's pupils have even more of an advantage. Many of these children won't even be naturally bright and shouldn't even be at said grammar schools.

In our local area apparently far fewer state educated kids got into grammar school this year. Obviously this is due to more privately educated kids applying for places due to parents struggling to pay fees in the current economic climate.

This is wrong. Grammar school should be reserved for state kids only. For many kids rightly or wrongly it's their one big shot at getting a leg up in life. The rich shouldn't be able to hoover these places up because they're feeling the pinch.

You can't put a stop to tutoring but the gov could put a stop to this very unfair practice(if they truely believe in social mobility).It would be very easy to control.

This isn't sour grapes on my part(my dc are tiny) just an observation.

I'd like to know why spending money on your kids school fees, instead of on a flashy car (my circumstances), makes me a bad person in the eyes of the socialists on this site?

I can't imagine they'd be very happy if I had a Porsche either.

milamae I don't use any GS places, but I do think if we fell on hard times then I should have the right to access a service I have helped to pay for.
That seems only fair.

The point I am making is that the children I know wouldn't have their world dramatically changed over night by a GS place anyway.
They simply don't have the parental support to make it work.

I'm not opposed to grammar schools because I want the place but because I feel they are no less elitist than private schools. Not only because they often require MC, savvy parents but because they only give a hand up to those that are clever.

By wanting the grammar system you are saying you want your own kids to have an advantage over those that don't pass the 11+. Not sure how differnt that is.

Perfectly happy for you to have a Porsche - if you don't mind looking vulgar. Can cope with you spending your money on private education if that's what you want to do.

Definitley CANNOT deal with you using your money to buy your child into a free state school at the expense of kids who don't have the advantages yours do.

There are always positive armies of straw men on thresds like this "You don;t want rich people to pay for 2 years worth of coaching to get their kids into a grammar school over the heads of bright disadvantaged children? You'll be banning ipods and claret next!"

When applying for high schools I only applied for outstanding schools I asked one of the parents why she didn't apply for the same school as she lives closer than I " I can't be asrsed thierbreally stric and I don't want the hassle" its sad to say to have to relies even if you provided top notch education for all not every parent wants the best for their child if they did we would have need for care

People choose schools for all diffrent reason and sadly the education if provides its not always on the top of everyones list

I was more shocked at the amount of parents who choose schools of the basis of weather their Childs friends are attending rather than what type of education it can provide for their child

Whatever system you have their will Always be good and bad even in marks and spakrs somethings are better than other

Even if you forced these parents to have their children in these better schools their children would either be expired because they don't have a basic foundation or they would pull them out of the school as any attempt to discipline their child or enforce boundaries would lead to the their picking on my child mantra the mrs Chavez uses when being challanged about their childs behaviour

Their are lots of oppatunties for families who have a bad start but it relies on them taking them up eg. Cheap Bally tickets or sure start free and open to all but mrs Chavez stays away set up what sort of system you like the bad parent will always stay away and its their children you need to reach

The idea you can some how improve a childs life chances without tackaling the real issue their up bringing is a joke its like building a house without a foundation

Usually mrs Chavez sticks her 10 kids in the local school with out thought because its the nearest and no one will notice if their late or don't attened or not wearing the correct uniform

This idea that all parents want the best for their children as if all these people need is the chance what do you do with the child who's prints don't give to hoots putting them in any outstanding school won't help will the parent be more engaged? Will the parents f
Support the school?
Will the child be better behaved ?

All I fear it would lead to is a much quicker exclusion

How do we support disadvantage kids by kicking their parents in to touch it's not popular but you cannot change a child alone the whole family dynamic to change the reason whey certain families children do well is not because of money its because of strong parenting you may get the odd child that can raise above week,no existent or poor parenting but it won t be many.

You can't tell the child not to be a fool when their being a raised by one the way to stop the child become a fool is don't let the fool raise the child.

Mrsw I think some problems could be alleviated by more money. I grew up in impoverished circumstances and it would certainly have reduced the sheer stress my DM was constantly under...it can also allevaite poor living conditions which must affect a child's ability to succeed at school.

but all the cash in the world will not make parents interested and I suppose I question whether schools can overcome that. Whether it's not too much to ask of our teachers.

I myself and by no means rich but instead of having 10 kids I had 1 and instead of being 20 b&h I get a tutor for my lo once a week life is about choices no doubt if you mde mrs Chavez 100k a year for life she would by more juicy tracksuits than you can shake a stick at and still neglect Los education

wordfactory, I grew up in real poverty. Lack of shoes and food type poverty. But, and it's a big but, my parents were always interested in my education. Always reading to me, always taking me to the library and on walks through the woods.

Would more money have made it easier? Absolutely! But lack of money did not hinder my aspirations nor theirs for me. Conversely, they could have had more money and less interest and I would have ended up doing fuck all.

seeker, I think we've had "discussions" about this sort of subject before.

You seem to be implying that my DS wouldn't be clever enough to get into grammar school if I hadn't privately educated him. You don't seem to have a lot of faith in that state education system after all do you?

Don't worry - my DS won't be taking up any of those precious grammar school places, as sadly, no grammars where I live. Guess I'll just have to keep on paying those fees to get what I want!

Porsches are "vulgar" - love it. I've got a Skoda for gods sake!

Off for a goblet of claret now (if it's not been banned yet, that is).

The only way its fair to ask it of our teachers if they will supported by parents other wise their trying to drain water out of a sinking ship.

And again I dont by poor living conditions if a parent won't clean or decorate what can you do we have all seen the programs with mr and mrs chavz were the wall paper is pealing off the wall and the kids are sleeping on mattresses on the floor and the door has been kicked meanwhile their are lots of people on low income would never dream of letting their house get like that

Its about choices sadly some people make bad ones just because you live in a council flat it dosent mean you have to live like a tramp

A porker, vulgar?
Mais non.

A Bentley I will give you, but a 911 is a thing of beauty. The engineering is superlative.

I think that the one big differential is parental attitude and unfortunately I don't know how you get over it. Some DCs make it, despite parents who aren't interested or on drugs etc but it is an uphill struggle for them.

Yes.
I used to work with children in the care system and although some of their parents were undoubtedly evil bastards, many were not. They were just incapable of adequately parenting, often because they had not been adequately parented.

Sometimes intervention and assistance changed things around, but more often it did not.

I really really do not know what you can do with those parents.

Even well meaning ones don't always act in the DCs best interests. This week one poster asked why a DC would read once they had learnt - I think she was completely serious.

Ok so if I don't buy my child an educational advantage, what would be acceptable purchases ? You see my childs diet is excellent, advantage, their house is owned therefore they have stability, advantage, I drive them to school so they start their day at a reasonable time and aren't stressed about the journey, advantage the list goes on and on and on. Unless you plan for all children to be raised in some sort of commune by robots this whole discussion is somewhat ridiculous.

And Bally ??? fckng hell (rolls eyes to ceiling)

smallwhitecat - It depends on the Porsche though. Cayennes and Panameras are vulgar as fuck.

Not that vulgar is necessarily bad....

If you feel that strongly about it, surely the opinion should be to ban private schools. To ensure there is no 'top tier' in schooling.

If every Lord and Lady or child of parents earning over £100k HAD to put their child in the local state school - that would ensure the state education improved! Then the whole country would benefit.

Go the full hog, and do as they do in Brighton, whereby entry is not even done on where you live any more. All the children living in a certain radius go into a pot and if there are, say, 3 schools in that radius each child has a 1/3 chance of getting the one they want. That way it will stop the issue of some areas being so much more expensive than others.

Along the same theme, as another example, in Keynsham there are 2 secondary schools: Broadlands and Wellsway. It is accepted that Wellsway is a much better school (better results and less 'trouble'), so in the very small town of Keynsham you can pay £80k more for the exact same house if you are on the Wellsway side of town. If they adopted Brighton's approach the houses would even out a lot more.

What if we decide to home educate? Or is that banned too?

pingu - that would not work either as parents would simply move house to put them selves in a postion to get their children in to the best state school or do what the lower middle class do is find religion so they can get a as good as private education for free.
of pay a private tutor to home educate

sorry to be a snob but i dont want my child at a sink school to impove the "social mix" my job as a parent is to get my child educated even if you loads of careing parents those children who are doomed will still fairl because they have ribbish parents

we have already estabished even if you raise the stands of the school the only ones who would benafit would be the beeter parents children you might get one or two children for who the aspration might rub off but it wont be the norm

if you grow a flower with no light or no water it will die. you can change the soil, change the plant water the flower more but if the grower has no clue the plant will never grow

change the family dynamic and change the child and their life chances

MAYPOLE1 Good to hear someone with a bit of common sense
The utopian world people are banging on about will never come about - you can change certain aspects for the underprivilidged, but bringing everyone down to their level is utter rubbish! We are lucky to have people who grow up to be ambitious and have new ideas about society, think of all the philanthropists out their - I agree maypole1 you have to do the best you can for your own children and look out for anybody elses you can give a bit of a helping hand to on the way - but you don't sacrifice your own childs education/opportunities in a misguided attempt to help the less priviledged....(well you could, but you wouldn't achieve anything and I'm sure they will not thank you for it!)
Also as mentioned spending time with your child reading etc dosen't cost anything...but some parents cannot/will not do anything to help their own offspring and nothing the state can do will help that which of course is very sad but a fact of life..... can't believe I came back, but very entertaining