To think if the gov are serious about social mobility they should be banning privately educated kids from taking state grammar school places?

[MilaMae]

Spending ££££ on tutoring to get your kids into a grammar school is one thing but sending your kids to a private school which is free from the national curriculum and able to spend every day teaching to the 11+ is wrong and buys kids school places which should be reserved for the state educated.

Alongside freedom to teach to the 11+ private schools have tiny classes so it's pupils have even more of an advantage. Many of these children won't even be naturally bright and shouldn't even be at said grammar schools.

In our local area apparently far fewer state educated kids got into grammar school this year. Obviously this is due to more privately educated kids applying for places due to parents struggling to pay fees in the current economic climate.

This is wrong. Grammar school should be reserved for state kids only. For many kids rightly or wrongly it's their one big shot at getting a leg up in life. The rich shouldn't be able to hoover these places up because they're feeling the pinch.

You can't put a stop to tutoring but the gov could put a stop to this very unfair practice(if they truely believe in social mobility).It would be very easy to control.

This isn't sour grapes on my part(my dc are tiny) just an observation.

Hmm, so what's the difference between this and paying for tutoring which you seem to think is ok?

Would you like some ketchup to go with that chip on your shoulder?

The parents of privately educated kids pay for state schools in their taxes too you know. If you believe in selection at 11 (I don't by the way) then how can you have a problem when the grammar school places go to the brightest children? That's the whole flippin' point surely?

Find it hard to believe that parents of state school pupils can't find practice 11+ papers on the internet now.

perhaps we should just dig a pit, and chuck the privately educated kids in there?

We dont have grammar schools in Scotland. Are they like High School or am I being thick??

I don't think it's ok but how do you stop it? I also think 1 or 2 tutoring sessions a week isn't quite on the same scale as private schools teaching to the 11+ in tiny classes 24/7.

All local state schools will have names of kids eligible to sit the 11+ so banning privately educated kids is easy to do. It doesn't solve the whole problem but goes some way to solving the worst of it.

Many private (prep) schools won't teach the 11+ to get your child into a grammar. They expect parents to pay all the way through to 18 and their focus is therefore to get the children through either the private 11+ exams or common entrance. So I don't think you should worry that many private school pupils are sat there being unfairly prepared for grammar school - many will be privately tutored in the same way as many state school entrants.

Being privately educated and taught to an exam full time doesn't make you bright or more eligible for a place. Personally I don't like the grammar system either but it's there and needs to be made fairer.

Is this fact or your supposition? At ds's prep there is no preparation for 11+ even though a lot of the pupils at the school live in the catchment area for grammar schools. The school make that clear.

I would love for Ds to go to the local state school where they DO prepare for 11+ but unless I win the lottery I cannot afford a house in the catchment area and I cannot afford to give up work to pick him up from school every day along with all the other wealthy SAHMs.

Check your facts before you post such utter drivel about 'social mobility'.

I think this is a completely unworkable idea. Am not at all convinced that grammar schools are the answer to social mobility either.

What if the parents cannot afford private school fees from age 11 up?

Actually I don't even think "social mobility" is what we should be aiming at come to think of it. A good education for all would be a good start.

In terms of the philosophy of the 11+ it is fair - the children who do best on the test get to go to the grammar school. However you prepare you children is up to you.

Can you afford a plane ticket to communist North Korea? Think you might be happier there.

OP, how do you know what the intake was? Do the grammar school(s) publish a list of the primary and prep schools which sent pupils?

Also, I don't think you can get into a grammar school if you are not bright. IQ does not increase ad infinitum with more and more teaching, practice and coaching. Obviously small classes (and tutoring) help but a well-designed 11+ exam should be able to select children with above average ability. Having said that, it shouldn't be beyond the means of state primaries to hold tutoring classes for children who want to take a shot at the 11+. Some state schools seem very sniffy about this, but I can't see why.

I should add that the expectation and encouragement at ds's school is that the pupils go on to the attached senior school (70%) do.

The government don't give a toss about social mobility. As long as the rich get richer, the middle classes keep the status quo and the poor are kept quiet.

One block to poorer children getting in to grammar schools is that free school transport isn't available unless it is your nearest secondary school. We pay £700 a year for DS to get to school. A lot of parents will simply decide that they cannot afford it, particularly if they have 2 or 3 children.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/4324902/Parents-buy-grammar-school-places.html

The Head of our (private) school will not allow any 11 + preparation within school time. He says there's no evidence that tutoring to the test works and that it's not the best way of selecting the right child for the right school anyway.

Now you could of course say he has a vested interest because of course if you don't go for the grammars you either go privately all the way through or you go to the comprehensive.

But either way I think it's unrealistic to imagine all these prep school kids getting masses of 11+ preparation.

OP to create true social mobility you would also have to ban those dcs who live in houses that cost more than the national average. I'd agree with that. For the two good schools in our area that prep for 11+ you would rule out all of the pupils too. You'd be left with my local catchment school that was in special measures until recently and whose head (when I visited the school) was absolutely against the 11+.

here is my very first

1. there are not enough state school places (certainly in our borough), the private sector is currently giving a lot of breathing room to the state sector, if you think state school class sizes are too big now, try and do some maths around what would happen if every private school pupil was put into the state sector.
2. the government could not put a stop to this. Lawyers have already been appointed to act on behalf of private schools/ parents if universities start discriminating against kids who have come from the private school sector.
3. I can also say with certainty (given that private schools involve fees and an income is needed to pay the fees) that the parents who send their kids to private school pay tax. Their taxes pay for the state school system including the grammar schools. So the parents of private school children have every right to access these schools.

I also really detest the inverse snobbery on these threads. Of course if you go to private school, you are going to be dim . A lot of people I know dont just send their kids to private school for academic side of it, but for the sports/ arts/ music facilities.

I personally think that all people who dont pay taxes/ council tax shouldnt have access to the NHS and the state school system. Would be very easy to implement. We can chip people and alarms go off whenever anyone of this ilk approaches and establishment they shouldnt. I think this statement is as ridiculous as your OP.

YABU.

I have teacher friends who know people who teach in the grammar system-they get fed up with kids tutored into the school who shouldn't really be there.Many kids flounder because they were coached into the school.

I'm not that keen on the grammar system but feel if it's there it should be open to poorer kids not just the rich.Molly had a good point re transport too.

olderandwider we're eligible for the Bucks 11+ - the state primaries are not allowed to prepare the children for the test save for a couple of standardised familiarisation sessions. The theory being as you say that you shouldn't be able to tutor to the test.

I know a mum who recently blew her son's appeal chance by admitting that the school had quietly arranged some private tutoring sessions - the Head got an earbashing from the appeal panel when this got out.

If you truely believe in social equality you would want to ban private and grammar schools.

Which I do.

They cant even stop out of borough grammar pupild let alone prep school ones. I would rather they stopped oput of borough places first.

I would agree that lots of preps dont actively teach for 11+ either as its all about common entrance.

Your link is based on supposition. There is no fact in Prof Jesson's report, just a supposition that because private schools don't have to follow the NC they spend all their time tutoring to 11+. If private school pupils do better it has nothing to with tutoring. All the pupils I know both in state and private are tutored for 11+ outside school hours. On top of this the state schools do some practice in school that the private schools don't.