To think if the gov are serious about social mobility they should be banning privately educated kids from taking state grammar school places?

[MilaMae]

Spending ££££ on tutoring to get your kids into a grammar school is one thing but sending your kids to a private school which is free from the national curriculum and able to spend every day teaching to the 11+ is wrong and buys kids school places which should be reserved for the state educated.

Alongside freedom to teach to the 11+ private schools have tiny classes so it's pupils have even more of an advantage. Many of these children won't even be naturally bright and shouldn't even be at said grammar schools.

In our local area apparently far fewer state educated kids got into grammar school this year. Obviously this is due to more privately educated kids applying for places due to parents struggling to pay fees in the current economic climate.

This is wrong. Grammar school should be reserved for state kids only. For many kids rightly or wrongly it's their one big shot at getting a leg up in life. The rich shouldn't be able to hoover these places up because they're feeling the pinch.

You can't put a stop to tutoring but the gov could put a stop to this very unfair practice(if they truely believe in social mobility).It would be very easy to control.

This isn't sour grapes on my part(my dc are tiny) just an observation.

Blimey everybody. The answer is obvious. As I've said already, this issue isn't the fault of private or grammar schools.
The fact is if we had a first class state system more people wouldn't feel they had to make those choices.

lovelybertha how do you get around the thing that I saw on a prog with andrew neill about social mobility recently - that in his generation there was a way "in" for a bright poor child. Now all the doors are firmly closed.

Mrswitcher you don't get 16K in your pocket after tax and how do these people pay rocketing food,fuel,mortgage bills,council tax,heating,electricity etc?Seriously I'd love to know.

In my area only 1 private school prepares for the 11+ and that is because they finish at Year 6. The boast of their grammar school uptake on a local radio advert.

The other private school provides education to Year 13. They do nothing for the 11+, and are obstructive (will not allow the Year 7 teacher to visit the school to talk to the teacher of the student who will be shortly attending the grammar). The children who get a place at grammar are not mentioned when leaving and are discriminated against in the annual prizes.

Exactly Sardiine my dad was grammar educated,his parents were in service.There is no way on earth his grandchildren would get a place now.

If you have a job that pays well, say £50k - are you rich?

Many people forget how you got the job, forget that you worked very hard to get that job that pays you a little bit more!

Is it fair to say just because you have a low paying, everyone else should live your life?

The education Ds is getting is the same one I had pre-NC constraints. However that is not the reason be is there. He is there because of the wraparound care that is not available at our local state schools. Had his CM dithered about whether she would do a school run for him once he started school I would never have discovered that it is cheaper to pay prep school fees than my CM costs! Lucky those of you who can afford not to work or can afford to work part time. Some of us have no choice but to work full time (or live on benefits, which wouldn't be an acceptable choice for me).

SardineQueen - I didn't see the programme (wish I had).

I guess the point I am making is that the whole notion of 'a way in' is what is preventing real mobility.

A way into what exactly?

The 'fair' way would be for everyone to be provided by the education system an equal opportunity to make a success of themselves. This would only be possible, as joni says, through a first class state schools.

And that lovelybertha takes money,not something the gov are willing to put into education for the masses.Far better to come out with meaningless slogans.

I think Mrswitcher is referring to those SAHMs who choose to go back to work with the sole intention of earning enough to cover school fees.

No, you don't take home 16k if that's your gross salary but the average salary is 24k or similar is it not?

Look, I was just pointing out to Kate that whilst there's no denying it's a comfortable preserve, it is not, in many parts of the country, a wealthy preserve.

And as I said earlier, what about the non-academic kids from poor families? Are they doomed? Whilst the grammar system gave a huge leg up to some, it left many who didn't pass to rot.

Personally I see no difference between those at private schools and those being tutored. I do agree with the gist though - perhaps a certain number of places at grammar (maybe a quarter?) and other good state schools should be reserved for those in receipt of free school meals. Plus these children should get their transport paid for.

The best way to improve social mobility would be to make all private schools "state" schools whereby there would be top up fees based on a % of parental income.

I was that woman for a while.

I went to work to pay for the fees because DH could cover the mortgage, bills and extras.

My salary at the end of the month was £1,600 after tax - £1,300 went to fees and I had £300 change. (for 2DCs)

Things have changed though.

But how do they pay for childcare?

Also many women work just to be able to pay a mortgage.There is no money left over for fees. They may not be getting benefits but for many people it's still a struggle paying the bills. Families that can survive on just one salary are surely rare these days.

There are a few flaws in your propostion:

1. Many parents scrimp and save to pay for private prep in the hope that they can go to grammars from 11. They aren't 'rich' and can't afford to go private all the way through.

2. Many prep schools do not coach for the 11 plus at all. They are focused on Common Entrance.

3. Many independent schools are not at all selective and some focus on the academically weak. In some areas the grammars will be the most academic schools, out of both sectors, so every bright child should have access to them.

The best thing that state schools can do to help social mobility is to help and encourage students do the 11+. I did the 11+ in the 80s and had a few sessions at my ordinary state school, my ds1 will get no help at his.

My ds1 is at a state school in a deprived area of the borough and I want him to go to the grammar in the affluent area of the borough. I think that he is grammar school material. His teachers looked at me like [hmmm] and were surprised that I was preparing him at home and knew which books etc to use.

What childcare?

I worked full time - I would drop DCs at 8am and pick them up after work at 5.15pm. The fees also includes holiday playschemes

Yes MilaMae - I agree.

However, if the grammar school system ceased to exist - then so called 'comprehensives' would actually be that. They would become different learning environments.

I'd be interested to get a teacher's perspective on this:

What impact would it have on your class if the 'brightest', lets say, 5 children were removed and the remainder were told they were here because they had 'failed'?

It comes about in london/home counties as mollie says because prep fees are cheaper than nursery fees for one dc. I kid you not. So you go down that path just losing what you're were already spening on day nursery fees and then when you start looking at secondarys you realsie that they are a lot more expensive than the preps.

Forever good idea but I think many families these days not in receipt of free school meals struggle.

Everything you hear about these days re help is aimed at families getting free school meals,how many is that exactly,not a lot I suspect?What about the families just over.The CB thread was interesting.Many families loosing that were financially no better off than many getting credits etc.

I think the free school meals thing is a red herring,I don't think aiming help at free school meal families helps a lot of families iykwim. What about the squeezed middle the gov apparantly care so much about?

This post is really relevant to me at the min as we are hopefully sending DC, yr2, to prep school come september. Today we had the (lovely) man from the independant bursary assessment company come and go over our finances so that he can make a report to the school on what we can afford to pay.

The plan is that DC will move at 11+ to the grammar if funds are still tight as we will then have DS2 to educate. If we can afford it then they will both stay in the independent sector.

I completely agree with posters further up who pointed out, we pay an awful lot of tax and so we're bloody well entitled to send our DC to state school at any point we chose.

Unlikely you'll need childcare if your kids are at independent school.

As for wages, when my 3rd child starts school in September, I will have about £22 a month left after fees. So yes, I work purely to pay fees or rather I need to work to pay fees. They pretty much cancel each other out.

We are in a grammar school area. Not superselective - you pass, you get a place.

My children go/went to a very ordinary state primary in a very disadvantaged area. I can look at ds's class now and tell you which ones will pass. I could have done the same when he was in rReception. Not necessarily the brightest, but the children of middle class, professional/graduate parents.

Privilege follows privilege. It is an iniquitous system. Simply iniquitous.

Oh, and there is a private primary school nearby that virtually guarantees a pass at 11÷. they get 99% plus through. Easy if that's what you're focussing on!

i went to a pit town infant school, had no books in the house and parents who did not give a shit about my education - yet i passed my eleven plus & got a place

if you are bright enough you have a chance - a private education does not bless you with brains and agree most private schools coach for common entrance