to think grandparents should not have legal rights to see their grandchildren

[hardhatdonned]

Instead it should fall on the parents to include the extended family in the childs life and shouldn't fall on the resident parent to provide access to every member of both families and their dogs?

(Just reading the news before I go to bed and one article in the Daily Toiletpaper riled me a lot!)

Of course people have very good reasons, but the fair thing now is that someone else will have to decide if they are justified and it stops people just saying 'over my dead body'. (I am not getting at you Nessy-I realise that people have good reasons, but some people don't and this will sort them out in the interests of the DC).

My dad didn't make the effort for us, so there is no damned way that now I am a parent he is getting to mess in my children's lives. He hasn't earned it.
And yeah, it probably is a damned shame, he probably would be a good grandparent, but guess what? He forfeited those rights when I was growing up. I'm not going to allow him time with my kids so that he may or may not mess with their heads too. He never physically abused us, he wasn't a bad man, but imo the mental effect it had on both me an my sister caused irreprable damage and I am simply not prepared to take that chance with my boys.
He got in touch after 11 years when he found out that I'd had my first ds and was full of the usual 'I'm sorry, I'm going to do better now' stuff. And then within weeks we were back to square 1. Imagine if he had legal rights?

I know not every gp is like my dad - I know some are genuinely great people. And having a brilliant set of gps myself who featured majorly in my life (especially after my arse of a dad ditched us) I am aware of how important it is to have connections with the older generation.
I don't think however that there should be any LEGAL stuff involved. Especially for the sake of the children. Jeez, it's hard enough for the children involved when parents become embroiled in the legal stuff, but the grandparents too....there's no need. Yes, in some cases it's very sad, but I suppose life just has to be simpler than legal obligations. It's hard enough on a one tier level. What next? Aunts and Uncles? (wonders about all the half-brothers and sisters I've got kicking about courtesy of father)

A Sensible Approach to individual cases is needed. Individual situations: individual decisions. There's no black and white - always shades of grey.

Very sensible to get someone not emotional involved to decide in the interests of the DC. (it is obvious from here that it is an emotive issue)

Isn't this just a change to the way in which grandparents can access the courts? Grandparents have always needed the consent of the court before a contact application could even be made. Isn't this just the automatic right to apply coming in? It's been on the cards since I did family law 10 years ago.

I think it is incredibly important that grandparents have access to the court system in this way. I dealt with three grandparental applications and they were very sad. One grandfather was the only relative who had any interest in a set of siblings who were taken into care. He tried to care for them himself several times after their drug-taking parents abandoned them, but he was disabled and elderly and had recently lost his wife. After care proceedings were begun SS tried to cut him out of their lives even though they had wanted him to look after them permanently.

We also dealt with a set of grandparents who were cut out after an acrimonious divorce. Their son wasn't interested - they were.

The most difficult one was a lovely grandmother whose son had had a brief relationship with a girl from a very wealthy family whose parents didn't want her and her son involved because they were not well-off. She moved back home and refused access. They actually said in writing that the child would be brought up in a privileged background and would move in the kind of society where a grandmother who worked in a supermarket would be an embarrassment. Desperately sad.

Can you honestly say that all these people should have been barred from the court system? Incidentally, they all got access.

I don't know exoticfruits.

I would say I have a very rational take on what used to be an emotional situation for me. I was very very careful to weigh up all the facts.
I was even prepared to make a go of it purely for my dc sake. But he proved that he was still a cock [eejit emoticon] so, no deal. I wouldn't say I have any emotion involved in that situation anymore. Just to stay out of it - there's no love, no hate, just indifference. I am done and cannot be bothered anymore. And yeah, there's a little bit of a primal urge to keep my kids out of difficult situations - and that's one of them.

In some cases I don't know if a stranger could see all of the emotional turmoil which makes a case. Sometimes something looks good on paper but isn't IRL. When things become subjective, people's opinions can be damaging.

Having said, there are some people who definitely let their emotions in the way....

It's very very tricky...

I do think if the parents involved are good and loving parents whose children are happy then their judgements should be trusted.

I agree kungfupannda. Definitely!

As I said, black, white, shades of grey. Everyone is different, there are a million different situations.

My dad never bothered his arse for me. I'm sure he wouldn't bother for my 2 either!! No danger of that!

Rights for grandparents??? Where is their responsibility to their GC? Where are they when we are so ill we're having to drag ourselves around to care for our DC? Where are they when you need a babysitter every now and again?
So many threads on here have posters saying that GP do not have any obligation to help out with their GC but here are most posters saying they should have rights. Make your minds up, rights come with responsibilities.

And I do have a good relationship with my XIL where the children are concerned. My XH can take the DC to see them or the XIL contact me directly if they want the DC at other times which is not a problem. They're fab, the DC love them and I love the help that I get. BUT it's for me and XH to decide what happens with our DC. I would no way on this earth want my DC to have contact with my abusive parents but if the DC lived with XH they could go to court to get access rights. And maybe get those rights as most of their abuse has not been recognised legally!

YABU

What about the right of the mother the provider? Father should have a level of access but why can that not be shared with extended family member... whats next uncle/aunties rights when does it stop? My ex partner walked out on me and our child i got abuse off the family for no reason. my relationship with his mother was horrible given that she had a problem with everyone her son went out with, the fact i was pregnant with her grandchild was worse,she tried to bully me into have a termination and trying to get him to walk away and not borther with us( which he later did a year later) she mentally tortured me during my pregnancy so much so i was bleeding and had abdominal pains, thankfully i was living in another town so i didnt have to around her as much. She was that agaisnt it she booked a holiday when i went over so she would miss the birth of her first grandchild. During my time with her son she made my live a living hell putting me down at every opportunity. She is a very manipulative lady so much that she had my ex partner bank money away for months before he left me and my child with nothing but bills and an empty house. It was my family that took us in. I got abuse in the street infront of my child off his family members and friends, so much i lost 2 and half stone in 8 weeks. Why on earth would i want this woman having any access with my son on her own? She is welcome to see my child when her son has him. My ex partners parents arent together and he has denied him access of our son, so due to how well he and his wife treats me i meet up with coffee with my son. That should be my right as a mother to determine who sees my child. What about in todays societys parents split up all the time that child could have four sets of grandparents does that mean they all should be granted access seperately? I didnt grow up with grandparents but i had two of the best parents in the world

My Mum looked after her GD (DB's child) full-time for just over a year. She gave up her entire life for over a year in order to give her GD the best start (she was asked by BIL and his wife to move in with them and do this).

Apparently there was a disagreement between Mum and her DIL and to be fair I have no idea what it was so can't comment on that. The upshot of this is that my Mum hasn't seen her GD since she left and she's now 4.5. It's a real shame for my Mum and my brother apparently is too scared to push the subject with his wife as she would "give him hell over it".

They used my Mum basically as a nanny for over a year and have since accepted money from her due to job losses, but she hasn't seen her GD for over 3 years.

Not sure if GP's should have rights, but this is just a story from the 'other side' so to speak.

I'm bloody glad they don't - my DH's mother beat him, locked him up and sexually abused him for his first 15 years until she ran off. It was never proven, so she has no convictions. She is actually now a local councillor in DH's hometown

Thank fuck she has no right to get anywhere near our DCs.

I'm very ambivalent about this, I know that my parents and my PIL absolutely deserve to see all their grandchildren, they have put themselves out on lots of occasions to help their adult children and genuinely only have the best interests of their grandchildren at heart.

However I am also aware of lots of grandparents who have an overwhelming sense of entitlement. I think if this becomes law it could lead to a lot of control freakery...

i dont understand what the intitals stand for in your statememts pil? dc? db? but i think if it became law its on rocky ground a mother should have the right to move away or live aboard, no one should have that control over someone

Adele - how long have you been here?!

PIL - parents in law (surely pretty obvious!)

DC - darling children

DB - darling brother

My cousin got a girl pregnant and now doesn't see her or the child. I don't see what business it would be of my grandparents to take her to court to see the child. If they want to speak to this lady privately and ask to see the child then fair enough but if she says no then I think it would be pretty disrespectful to take her to court over it.

not long, i dont use text language, i wouldnt of guessed DC or DB. i think that situations are never black or white and for this right to be allowed would cause more problems, personally given my own experience i would sooner move away that be controlled by my ex mother law. I think this law would infringe on parents right to parent their child/ren and who played a part in their life.

YANBU

I did some family law when I was a trainee solicitor and TBH I think it should fall on the parent without residence to arrange to take the children to see their side of the family when they have contact with the child.

One parent I acted for had a DS she never saw as he was at school all day during the week, in the evening he had homework and it was routine stuff in the evening after school stuff, etc, then with contact with dad and grandparents she had just two 2 saturdays and NO sundays a month to spend with her own son.

She was quite upset about the Sundays as contact was until 6pm which she thoguht was too late as she had to get him ready for school and everything the next morning and they frequently brought him back late, sometimes 8pm and he was over tired having been out all day sometimes. So every week night she had to ensure he had to do his homework after school as there would be no time to do it on an idle Sunday. She also had a school day 7 days a week as the child had to up and dressed early.

I don't understnad why some of the contact couldn't be for a meal afterschool. Particularly with grandparetns. There is something far wrong when mum gets 2 saturdays a month with her own child.

YANBU. If anyone thinks they have 'rights' to my son, they can kiss my sweaty arse.

I like to think of it as the children having the right to see their grandparents and if one parent is stopping that happening then yes the courts should intervene.

Has anyone else said that they don't have rights, the children do? One of my BIGGEST pet peeves is "parental rights" sorry, no you don't have any! PR stands for parental responsibility. I don't believe that grandparents should have rights the parents don't. I do believe children should have a right to family life (which they do) and that it includes seeing their grandparents.

If the parents aren't filling that right then the grandparents should make their own arrangements. Just like if an RP was stopping the NRP from having contact, it's not about the NRP's right (even if they'd like to think it) it's about the children's right and they can't exactly make court arrangements in their own right.

LostInTheBlackHole sorry but my kids wont be going any were near the grandmother abd i use the term loosely if anything happens to me

she was the one who encouraged my ex to stop seeing the kids the one who encouraged him to stop payments and hasn't bothered with them since they were born

it would happen over my dead body

Well, if we had been legally obliged to visit my granny I think my mother would have gone mad, my granny was a nasty bitch whose sole mission in life was to make everyone's life hell.

If there really is some sort of "right" in law for GPs I'd like to see it balanced with the right for children to divorce their parents...how can you legally foist a person on another person with no account of the personalities? Then the child should be able to legally get rid of them, otherwise it's unfair.

Well it doesn't sound like she would be likely to take you to court then.
My mother was going to do this with brothers ex and then she realised that she would actually be tied to having two small children every weekend and the matter was dropped, only the most dedicated GP's are going to go through with this so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

don't agree ishani currently many dads use the courts as a was of spiting the mother when they have no intention of even seeing the child just so they can drag her trough a expensive court case

happened to my sinister the ex who had no job got legal aid even though he hadn't see my my nephew since he was 3 decided to take my sister to court she had to pay as she was working half the time he didn't show up to court after he had one the right to see him every fortnight he came twice and was never heard of again my nephew was in bits after reestablishing contact after so many years and my sister £££££ down

their are plenty of grand parents who will also use the courts to whip the exs with

Grandparents rights are one of my biggest worries for two vastly opposite reasons.

Our LO has a great relationship with my parents and he sees almost nothing of DH's parents, he hasn't seen them since just before Christmas.

I've posted on here about the way my PILs treat me and I think the people here talking about toxic grandparents would agree that the description applies very well to my PILs.

So my fear in regards to them is that they would somehow gain rights to access to my son, who they have only seen a handful of times since he was born. No doubt they would make the case that I was the one keeping him away from them (and that's true to a point) but I have the (wobbly) backing of my DH to do so and at first when my relationship with them deteriorated I did agree to let DH take LO to see them without me. It was their behaviour that ended even that arrangement (MIL once lifted LO by his neck when he was sitting on the floor in front of her). I don't want to write another epic post but they have done a lot of bad things to me and my DH and I am not letting them get to work on my child. They have disabilities and health problems that mean they are not ideal carers and even DH's brother has told them they cannot try to lift or carry his younger children for fear that they will fall onto or drop them. PILs fall a lot and cannot get up on their own, they need help. I live in fear that the courts will try to make me let them have LO if they take it into their heads to try and get him that way.

But the other side of the coin is I am scared that something might happen to me (fatal accident/terminal illness/etc) and DH will get snared back into his family and take LO away from mine.

LO loves my parents, sees them several times a week, enjoys being at their house, they babysit. They are older than DH's parents but fitter, healthier and more inclined to spend time with LO and play with him. DH can be a bit moody and I am worried that if I am out of the picture he will try to punish my parents for the way his parents have been cut out of our lives.

I may be a hypocrite to want my parents to have rights when I am the parent who made the decision to stop PILs seeing our son but I stand by my decision to do so as it was based on their repeatedly bad actions and increasingly nasty behaviour that made me reach that decision. They will say that they never did anything to harm him (I will point out the neck lifting incident) but I know they will undermine his self esteem and be critical of me to him.

So I support the idea that good grandparents with establised relationships should have rights but I am against the idea that all grandparents have those rights because not all grandparents are good ones. Some really are toxic.

Someone here said that everyone wants rights but nobody wants responsibilities. It took eight years for me to stand up for myself properly with PILs and in doing so I have been ripped apart by them to the point that I have panic attacks and depression issues now. DH grew up believing his mother would have a mental breakdown if she didn't get her own way and that it would be his fault. FIL is a bully who didn't protect his own children from MILs manipulations. MIL is a cruel woman who hides behind a "poor me, just didn't think" act to get her own way. I think in this case, as parents, our responsibilities to protect our child from that outweigh their rights to see him and even his rights to see them.

I just hope that I never have to go to court to say so and I hope that should anything happen to me my DH won't decide to take out his anger on my parents instead because that would be wrong when LO has such a good relationship with them and it would be a punishment to all three of them rather than a genuine belief that LO was being protected.