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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Anyone want to name an example of a protest march that a) acheived its aim...

204 replies

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 26/03/2011 21:37

within living memory and b) achieved its aim better and quicker because some fuckwits people actually took their very small DC along?

OP posts:
LDNmummy · 28/03/2011 13:42

Its funny how righty's always assume that criticising the tory's (or not taking the conservative stance) makes you some sort of lefty, class hate filled, ignorant to the facts and just sounding off while promoting militant anarchist groups type of person.

Eg: "Interesting to see that we pretty much have gone back 30 years in time, isn't it? Maybe it's just that Im old enough to remember this particular brand of no-brainer self-righteous squawkery where questioning anything about the methods used in pursuit of a cause immediately translates, in some people's underexercised minds as 'Bwaaaah! Class traitor! Tory! Enemy!'."

"Loving the 'tories are cnuts' posters, all full of class hate while carefully avoiding the fact that Labour would have been making the same cuts right now had they not been kicked out."

SGB you are yet to formulate an adequate response beyond this type of squakery yourself. And why is this considered a class hate issue? Its not class hate, there are plenty of upper to middle class people taking part in the current protests, at least I know many. There is criticism of Cameron based on his elitist background because he is so painfully obvious in his lack of knowledge of what it is to be the average person in this country.

As for the age old "the cuts have to come from somewhere, people should just understand that", yes of course, but it is where they are coming from and who is being affected as a result. There are plenty of other sources for funds, starting with the bankers who got us into this problem in the first place. Then there is the fact that too many companies are allowed to avoid paying taxes in a way that could be avoided.

There are vulnerable people who are being affected here, this government is literally taking food out of childrens mouths. I will be relatively ok, but it doesn't mean that I don't see what is going on around me. My brother will not be able to attend uni as my mother is a single parent and cannot afford to help him with the costs even though she works full time in a care in the community job, another place I see the cuts affecting whole families and communities.

I could go on but I'm gonna end up having a full on rant in a second with how angry it makes me.

ArfurBrain · 28/03/2011 13:54

I have my own opinion as to who is a fuckwit around here. And it ain't those who excersise their
democratic right to protest and would have been unable to do so if it meant not taking the children.

Bad things happen when good folk stand by and do/say nowt.

ArfurBrain · 28/03/2011 13:56

Oh and I am losing my job as a direct result of the cuts. Any my child's career dream just been shot down in flames due to combo of cuts and uni fees increase.

ccpccp · 28/03/2011 14:01

Whats the matter ArfurBrain, is your child not eligable for the loans or something?

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 28/03/2011 14:06

And the brain donors are still conflating 'disagreeing with the merits of a) protest marches in general and b) taking your DC on them' with 'being a Bad Person who Supports The Cuts.'

Go on, point to any post of mine which states my opinion on the cuts and the budget, one way or the other.
This is what I mean by whinyarsed self-righteousness.

OP posts:
LDNmummy · 28/03/2011 14:13

CCP I am an independent student (my parents could not support me) and I am graduating this year so will not have to pay increased fees.

But as a current student, I really understand what these increased fees will mean. My student loan is three times the amount of my partners who had some support. The amount we have to pay back over the years post uni, his starting from september, makes a considerable dent in our annual income. And that is on the current fees and loans structure.

The new fees and loans structure will mean a serious amount of debt that will eat into a post uni income three times as much annually. And it will take much longer to pay off. That means that people will be living a lower standard of life for much longer and may have to think twice before funding a masters or other further education because they already have too much student debt. I am lucky I will not be part of that graduating year. People think "oh its such a small amount", but not when you have that to pay on top of a mortgage and the other expenses that come along with adulthood post uni.

Thats why it is causing such a huge devide in who gets to attend uni. Because those who's parents are wealthy enough to subsidise can attend and those who come from working class and lower income families cannot.

Education should be about one's ability to learn and progress, not the size of your parents bank account.

miso · 28/03/2011 14:13

OK - going back to your original OP - can you name me a protest march in this country that achieved it's aims better & quicker because people left their DC at home?

miso · 28/03/2011 14:14

(this question was to the OP, obviously)

GothAnneGeddes · 28/03/2011 14:15

SGB In response to a) The marches start the movement. They are a starting point. The events in Egypt are a case in point. The mass movement to get rid of Mubarak started with the Jan 25th March. No that march did not achieve his resignation in one day, but it set the ball rolling for the mass pressure that lead to his departure. The movement would not have been possible without the march.

Likewise, in Yemen, they are very close to unseating their president. This movement started with...a march.

If you fail to understand that, then you are being wilfully obtuse.

LDNmummy · 28/03/2011 14:15

"This is what I mean by whinyarsed self-righteousness."

SGB, can you please formulate a sentence beyond this? You are coming across as very inarticulate and ignorant on the subject you are talking about.

LDNmummy · 28/03/2011 14:16

GothAnne many people have stated this including myself, but the OP refuses to acknowledge it or address it.

So I would say wilfully obtuse is correct.

carminaburana · 28/03/2011 14:22

Wasn't It Labour who introduced uni fees? >Hmm yes - more labour lies.

LDNmummy · 28/03/2011 14:24

carmina no one said it wasnt [groan]...

Not liking the current government does not mean supporting Labour.

miso · 28/03/2011 14:26

Do you think all the people on yesterdays march are blindly uncritical of everything Labour have ever done?

They were individuals with a common cause, not a hive mind.

miso · 28/03/2011 14:27

(It's Monday now isn't it? I should know that, I'm at work Blush)

ccpccp · 28/03/2011 14:28

"That means that people will be living a lower standard of life for much longer and may have to think twice before funding a masters or other further education because they already have too much student debt"

So the opportunity isnt being taken away, but you are unhappy that you have to pay for it?

Free higher education was ok when 10% of bright students went for it. But at 50% or so, its another unaffordable Labour policy that has fallen on its face I'm afraid.

thx1138 · 28/03/2011 14:29

*And the brain donors are still conflating 'disagreeing with the merits of a) protest marches in general and b) taking your DC on them' with 'being a Bad Person who Supports The Cuts.'

Go on, point to any post of mine which states my opinion on the cuts and the budget, one way or the other.
This is what I mean by whinyarsed self-righteousness.*

Jeez you're thick.

carminaburana · 28/03/2011 14:30

I don't remember anyone protesting/rioting though? Even though it was a blatant U-turn on an election promise - those money grabbing Labour bastards er? ... Who'd ever support them - I dunno.

carminaburana · 28/03/2011 14:35

In fact - I don't think Labour reversed much of what the Tories had put in place - Blair just carried on where the Tories left off - went even further in some cases.

GabbyLoggon · 28/03/2011 14:41

I suppose historically Tories are the bosses party.

They got an eleven million donation from the City.

No one gives eleven million quid for nothing..

AccioPinotGrigio · 28/03/2011 14:42

From what i can recall of your previous posts SGB they didn't say much of anything other than

"fuckwits who take their wanky, boden-wearing kids on violent marches are pretentious lefty posers who don't understand that marches achieve nothing"

You started this thread on a very weak premise - was it personal and directed at someone you don't like who took their kids on the march?

You do say that you have marched for and against stuff in the past so don't you at least understand why others would do that and not have a political view and not be anti-tory?

I marched with tory voters at the weekend. If Labour or the Green Party of the Monster Raving Loonies were bringing in these cuts we would have marched against them too.

We don't want patting on the back. We don't want to pose. We want to protect our vulnerable friends.

What do you want? Apart from the opportunity to insult other people in a rather childish and obtuse manner.

ccpccp · 28/03/2011 14:54

Its not 'Labour' though carminaburana - its 'New Labour'. Apparently there is a lot of difference between the two. It allows Labour supporters to ignore 13 years of authoritarian incompetance and pass it off as 'conservative'. The self delusion is shocking.

IMO it better to receive 11 mill through choice, than to hold every union member to ransom and force them to fund a champagne socialist party that doesnt stand up for them any longer. 13 years of uncontrolled immigration has done more damage to the honest worker in this country than any cuts.

carminaburana · 28/03/2011 17:24

I agree totally - NL betrayed their core supporters, they sold their soul to get elected in 97' and totally destroyed the country beyond anyones wildest dreams. Are we better off for having 13 years of NL? Don't make me laugh.
NL were full of slimy lying toads - only appealing to the benefit classes ( hey, let's stick half the country on benefits, make them our slaves for ever ) and the pseudo socialists ( hey - let's pretend we care about minorities when really we don't give a shite ) at least the Tories are honest.

ArfurBrain · 28/03/2011 17:30

ccpccp - oh they're all eligible for the loans, aren't they? lI'm just not advising my son to get £60,000 in debt and probably eschew a home of his own or a family.
He can't remain at home and study as we live in a 2 bed flat, where he shares a room with other sibs.
He is one of the 10 per cent who ought to have had the chance to go to uni. But these changes have come too late to allow me to make any significant provision for further ed for him.

LDNmummy · 28/03/2011 18:09

oh they're all eligible for the loans, aren't they? lI'm just not advising my son to get £60,000 in debt and probably eschew a home of his own or a family."

  • Exactly the same situation in regards to my brother. People seem to think that a student loan amounts to a pittance to pay back, it certainly does not.

ccpccp Mon 28-Mar-11 14:28:18

"That means that people will be living a lower standard of life for much longer and may have to think twice before funding a masters or other further education because they already have too much student debt"

So the opportunity isnt being taken away, but you are unhappy that you have to pay for it?

Free higher education was ok when 10% of bright students went for it. But at 50% or so, its another unaffordable Labour policy that has fallen on its face I'm afraid.

  • Where did I say I was unhappy to pay for an education? I am currently a student which means I was quite happy to pay for my education at the current fee's I pay. Please can you point out to me where I said I was unhappy to pay for an education?

And if it was not an elitist way of structuring who gets to attend higher education, instead of raising fees, the simple answer would have been to make entry requirements stricter so only the brightest, most able and most willing to achieve could attend. Wouldn't that seem fairer across the board?

And CCP and Carmina you both seem obsessed in making this about the Labour goverment and their mistakes. Carmina your point about them being the one's to introduce fee's is fair enough, no one is pretending otherwise. But it was still a manageable amount for lower income families, especially as Labour provided things like Surestart and subsidised childcare that meant families were spending less elsewhere and could afford to put a bit extra away for educational costs. It balanced out. But the Conservative's are disabling people from being able to do this. For instance, a single parent (of which there are many) had help with childcare and its costs, which meant he/ she could pursue a career and provide an income. Now the cuts are affecting childcare which means less people can afford to go out to work and pay full childcare costs. This in turns means less household income while other benefits are also being slashed. That type of family has nowhere to turn for support. Labour didn't do that. These cuts are too fast and too steep and will affect the people who need support the most. These types of families are being pumelled from all sides.

As for people not protesting against Labour, the explanation I gave above may be a reason why. Also, maybe people needed the situation to become as dire as it is now to sit up and take notice. Whether Labour made mistakes or not is not the point, we are talking about what is happening now. You are acting as if everyone came on here to have some sort of Conservative's V Labour debate, making an assumption that people here who do not support the Conservative's support Labour which is very naive.

Frankly If you have an anti Labour axe to grind, find an adequate place to do it because that is not what we are talking about. No one apart from you guys is screaming about the differences in the two parties, we are talking about the current government and what is happening now, regardless of the previous governments mistakes which no one has denied.