to find this article on motherhood inFURiating?

[BlooferLady]

Guardian writer in 'motherhood is hell' shock

Disclaimer: je suis TTCing. Erm, for a LONG time!

I didn't want children for years. YEARS! Was violently opposed to it And you know why? Because it looked like one long unending saga of drudgery, misery, isolation and loss of identity and self-respect (I have a large family and thus had the opportunity to observe its effects up close every 18 months or so).

We're TTCing now - hormones and a little wisdom took over, and I would very much like to be a mother. And yet here on MN and in the press I find my old terrors reinforced, and this article sums it all up. Everything I feared is true...

BUT IS IT? By the end of the article I wanted to slap the woman. She complains of her life dwindling to a miserable compressed world of perma-exhaustion, leaking breasts, nappy changes, never seeing her old friends, losing her sense of a professional life, only ever socialising with mothers and mother and toddler groups, bitterly envying women who still go to work, angry with her partner for not helping out round the house...

Someone PLEASE tell me it doesn't have to be like this. I wanted to yell at her, get out of the damn house and DO stuff you moaning bint! No-one MAKES you go to mother and toddler groups - put the creature in a sling and wander round the V&A! Let your partner do a bottle feed in the evening and go out for a boozy dinner! Do some work from home! MAKE your partner help out!

Surely there are people here on MN whose entire character isn't subsumed into the drudgery of being a mother? Who continue to be lively, interested in the larger world, engaged with their friends, interested in their career, happy in their relationships, still maintaining a sense of self and self-respect? For motherhood extends, informs, illuminates their life - doesn't effectively end it! Because if not, I don't want children. AIBU?!

curious you single out a women for derision 1st,on some level it obviously challenges your sensibilities and you feel it threatens your dh too.does that imply you think he has male entitlement,how dare a female work hard-make him look less

my phone is ringing im off

foxinsocks - you sound an amazing example that women should look to.

Such a contrast form Xenia's womenhating ball breaking.

I wonder which of you has the most respect and admiration form women on here?

scottishmummy, I refer you to my previous answer. Off to take DD to preschool.

xenia, maybe, does herself a disservice on here. I'm sure in real life she is inspirational to those who work with her. From what I recall (not that I know her), she is not one of those women who advocates the long hours/macho working culture either. I think people are reading that into her posts.

Thanks.
I certainly woudlnt' call myself woman hating at all. Plenty of women adore to compete, want to win, love the cut and thrust of work and it can be very sexist to suggest all women want to stay home and bake cakes and that that is some kind of main aim for woman - to do very little and that there is such a thing as "male values". It's not fair on men either to suggest ambition and will to win is just something men want. Plenty of women adore it.

No one can get round though the fact that as long as many many more women give up work than men we will never get to a position where say 70% of the cabinet is female one year simply because most of the best candidates are female or the board of HSBC or trhe judiciary or any other institution of power or even c of E bishops, if all these women wimp out and become housewives. That decision as a woman is a political one which damaegs other women and your own daughters. It won't be a political one when as many men as women stay home and when women have more or as much power as men but we are no where near that position yet and until we have consolidated the few gains we have made at work since about 1970 we really do need tos tick at it adn get more men at home with the duster whilst we lead most institutions in Britain. We have a very very long way to go to get anywhere near that and every housewife is damaging things for other women.

Xenia, perhaps we would listen to you more if you didn't use such derisory language to refer to women who choose (or sometimes have no choice) to stay at home.

to do very little
wimp out
every housewife is damaging things for other women

Phrases like this make me see red, and therefore detract from what might be an actual reasonable point that you are trying to make.

Why do you hate SAHMs so much? We are still women playing an important role in society. I don't "stay at home and bake cakes". I stay at home and look after my children - play with them, talk to them, educate them. Probably the same things that the people you pay to look after your own children are doing with them. Do you think your nanny/childcare provider is doing very litte or wimping out? Or do they count as working in your mind simply because you pay them?

In your new world order what importance do you attach to childcare? Is it not a worthwhile activity in your eyes? Is a woman only worthwhile if she is leading the revolution, sitting on the board of directors of a financial institution helping the rich get richer?

I'm all for working mothers, believe me, I used to be one after all! But I'm also all for choice and for doing what is right for your family and putting your children first (whether that be by working or staying at home).

Well it's a political decision as well as a personal one and it affects other women when so many women give up work which means fewer reach positions of power. I have never said anywhere that I hate housewives. I think they let the side down and for the next 50 years if anyone has to stay home they shoudl force their husbands to do it at least until women achieve equality in positions of power and only let up then.

Like most working parents of both sexes I put a lot of value on time we spend with our children. Many many fathers and full time working mothers are very good parents.

I never said working parents were not good parents. And you didn't answer any of my questions.

Why do you seem to think the act of childcare is so worthless compared to working in a well paid job?

Do you hold those who work in childcare in the same low regard as SAHMs? Or is it somehow different because they are getting paid for it?

Finally, should a true feminist really use the term housewife? For a start many SAHMs may not actually be wives. I find it quite patronising and ignorant.

personally i could not do both jobs as well as i do one xenia
my purpose in life has been to bring up my young myself - you condemn me for that
you chose to work and pay schools/ whoever to share the burden of that

Xenia, I'd really like you to answer the question.

Is it only a cop out to care for children if you're not being paid to do so? It's reasonable politically for women to play with/care for/spend time with young children if they are paid, but not if they are not?

Would it be preferable to work in a childcare job at a loss, as you suggested earlier in the thread, to remain "employable" than to take a short amount of time out of a career to care for children because of financial reasons?

I would love to see you engage with these thornier issues vs saying it's "political" as though the choice were the same for those in lower and higher-earning jobs.

I worked at a loss (or my husband) depending on who you add the childcare costs to. That worked very well and plenty of men and women do because they see a career as along term thing.

Becoming a housewife if you're female helps engrain sexist gender roles. Men staying at home at the moment in our current state of development does not. As for who looks after the children before they go to nursery or big school doesn't matter (although I've been hapyp my boys at a boy school have a lot (and now most) male teachers) and a good few women have "mannies" (male nannies) and male au pairs.

Parents who work, male or female, do bring up chidlren and the suggestion that just because they have jobs means they do not bring up a child is wrong.

ANyone secure in their choices will find comments that it is bad for female progres at work if most women after a baby will go part time or stop working shouldn't be bothered by such comments and indeed plenty may think they do not want woen in equal positions of power in the country. Lots are very left wing feminists too who think we should be sweeping away work (although what we'd eat then is another matter) and putting supposedly female societal structures in place. Other women are sexist and think only women shoudl be home and a man's place is out at work etc. All we can each do is ensure the message we think is correct continues to be expounded for the good of others and I will continue to expound mine.

Xenia, you still didn't answer the question! Blimey I feel like Jeremy Paxman

My question is - you seem to think that childcare is not a worthy activity for a woman, certainly not on a par with working outside the home. Do you apply these same standards to the people you pay or have paid in the past to look after your preschool children? Do you view the time they spent caring for your own children while you were working as wimping out and doing very little (your own words) or does it have more value because they were paid for it?

Suggesting that all women should work is just as blinkered and dictatorial as suggesting that all women should stay at home!

I am glad we live in a world where we have choices. I find your brand of feminism very simplistic, blinkered and one-sided. It is not feminism as I know it, and I have a first class degree in politics and definitely consider myself to be a feminist.

Finally, I asked you to stop using the term housewife! It is disrespectful to a vast group of women. I prefer not to be defined by my role, but if you must please use the term SAHM.

Very few people in the country use the term "SAHM" so it is hard to be understood if you use that word. Most people understand housewife. Luckily we still have free speech so I an use housewife (or househusband) if I choose.

SAHM suggests lazy skivers who don't see housework as part of their role and take the man's money but don't do the duties which is an unfair deal on men who work.

On the question apparently I did not answer - I am worried that so many women giving up work to stay home damages other women 's career prospects. All kinds of activites are worthy, even contemplative prayer might have its place as might being on the dole without children when you might get a job. I say not that the job is unworthy although it's so dull and low grade just about all women ever and men as soon as they have the money or power subcontract large parts of chidlcare and cleaning out for obvoius reasons (it's as dull as ditchwater) it is no less worthy than running a bank or doing open heart surgery BUT it is much lower status as we all know and does not stretch most women's talents enough.

Society values thigns by money or gold beads or whatever the currency is of a particular culture and ours values cleaning and domestic work at about minimum wage levels for obvious reasons. That is it's value whether you do it unpaid as a wife in return for cleaning and sexual services to the husband or for pay at your local school as a cleaner.

Dull and low grade? Blimey I hope you save that gem to tell your kids when they ask about their childhood!? Why did you have children if you hate them so much?

And how would you actually know what it's like when it appears you have never actually done it?

Off to bang my head against a brick wall. Then to spend the afternoon with my lovely bright funny children who I adore spending time with. Xenia you are a nutcase.

Dull and low grade? Blimey I hope you save that gem to tell your kids when they ask about their childhood!? Why did you have children if you hate them so much?

And how would you actually know what it's like when it appears you have never actually done it?

Off to bang my head against a brick wall. Then to spend the afternoon with my lovely bright funny children who I adore spending time with. Xenia you are a nutcase.

"I say not that the job is unworthy although it's so dull and low grade just about all women ever and men as soon as they have the money or power subcontract large parts of chidlcare and cleaning out for obvoius reasons (it's as dull as ditchwater)"

This, again, is about what you find dull. I didn't find it dull at all- though I also enjoy my career very much now that dcs are grown up. Your job otoh I probably would find very uninteresting. And I don't give a toss about how it's valued by society.

fwiw most of the men in my family have also taken their turn at childcare and have not found it dull.

Nutcase.

In a nutshell.

When xenia bangs on about being " poli'cal" is anyone visualising Jane Horrocks stamping her DM'd feet in Life is Sweet?

Xenia. You are either deeply, deeply bitter, angry and unhappy or unhinged. Or possibly both. IMHO, of course.

It's a bit sad to have to dismiss someone as being unhinged or bitter just because you don't agree with her point of view. Xenia has very strongly expressed views (some of which I totally disagree with) but that's partly because she is clearly very comfortable with her life. Where her view can grate is the assumption that because she has been extremely successful so can every other woman, which is a tad simplistic.

A lot of child rearing is dull, and housework even more so. That doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable for some, or strike a deal to accept the dull bits as the price for the good parts. Or that if you don't enjoy looking after children all day and choose to go to work instead that you 'hate' your children. That's just a stupid thing to say and implies that all parents who work hate their children (including presumably the husbands of the SAHMs on this thread).

Nooka, if you read the last few exchanges with Xenia, particularly her unwillingness to consider any other point of view and her rude disparaging comments about SAHMs (sorry, housewives) you will see why I got so frustrated!

I'm sure Xenia doesn't hate her children but her comments made it clear she finds time with young children dull and boring which makes you wonder why she bothered.

All along I have said I have no problem at all with working parents, each to their own. Xenia on the other hand has been very disrespectful to SAHMs basically calling us lazy cop-outs betraying the sisterhood. Oh, and prostitutes.

Gah, I swore I wouldn't engage with this thread again, gonna hide it now!

I adore being with my chidlren but about 2 - 3 hours a day has always suited me best as i t does most fathers in the land and many mothers. That doesn't mean we don't like to be with them. It's just that we want a proper balanced life.

Oh I wouldn't disagree that Xenia can be rude, and I'm sure it is entirely intentional. But rude doesn't = insane (mostly anyway).

I find looking after small children boring and frustrating, and didn't want to spend the majority of my time with them (two or three ours in the evening was lovely, more than that and I started to go slowly around the bend). It's not particularly unusual to feel that way. On the other hand I very much enjoy spending time with my children as they have got older . The way I see it is that dh and I chose to have a family, the baby part is (luckily for me) a very small part of that.

For me that's one of the reasons to be really careful about taking too much time out, as it can kill your career, and in my experience the more senior (experienced, skilled) and in demand you are the more flexibility you can have, which is incredibly important when your children are older and really need you (as opposed to anyone else).

when unable to sustain a cogent argument resort to name calling?how lame. jist of xenia is imo correct- if you prioritise someone (partner) else career and forgo your own wage earning potential is a precarious situation.is hard to recover progression from career break. childcare needs to be shared and some ability for female to retain a role external to home,to facilitate return to employment.going back to the op,she mourns her previous life/role and her partner is not equitable in sharing- no wonder journalist feels aggrieved and dissatisfied

Are you going to tell us what you do Scottishmummy?

not relevant as i dont post in a professional capacity

I agree with xenia's housewife/sahm (phone changes it to sham, interesting). it is unheard of in older generations and in the country. without wishing to fuel the flames too much further i would suggest that the outrage caused by the word housewife resulted because perhaps the defenders know that deep down all they are is a house "pootler" and perhaps not raising the messiah or running a stately home.