to find this article on motherhood inFURiating?

[BlooferLady]

Guardian writer in 'motherhood is hell' shock

Disclaimer: je suis TTCing. Erm, for a LONG time!

I didn't want children for years. YEARS! Was violently opposed to it And you know why? Because it looked like one long unending saga of drudgery, misery, isolation and loss of identity and self-respect (I have a large family and thus had the opportunity to observe its effects up close every 18 months or so).

We're TTCing now - hormones and a little wisdom took over, and I would very much like to be a mother. And yet here on MN and in the press I find my old terrors reinforced, and this article sums it all up. Everything I feared is true...

BUT IS IT? By the end of the article I wanted to slap the woman. She complains of her life dwindling to a miserable compressed world of perma-exhaustion, leaking breasts, nappy changes, never seeing her old friends, losing her sense of a professional life, only ever socialising with mothers and mother and toddler groups, bitterly envying women who still go to work, angry with her partner for not helping out round the house...

Someone PLEASE tell me it doesn't have to be like this. I wanted to yell at her, get out of the damn house and DO stuff you moaning bint! No-one MAKES you go to mother and toddler groups - put the creature in a sling and wander round the V&A! Let your partner do a bottle feed in the evening and go out for a boozy dinner! Do some work from home! MAKE your partner help out!

Surely there are people here on MN whose entire character isn't subsumed into the drudgery of being a mother? Who continue to be lively, interested in the larger world, engaged with their friends, interested in their career, happy in their relationships, still maintaining a sense of self and self-respect? For motherhood extends, informs, illuminates their life - doesn't effectively end it! Because if not, I don't want children. AIBU?!

What's the going rate to be Xenified?!

Far more than anyone other than Xenia can afford, I'd have thought.

not at all,id rattle it up from my purse

Both dh and I have careers. It's perfectly possible.

By staying at home and allowing men to do jobs that requires a partner to be at home only makes it worse for women or men with working partners who dont have the flexibility of a stay at home partner tbh. I see it so often in my workplace. The workplace would actually be a far more equitable place for everyone if more women worked - it would just end up having to morph into a different place.

I totally agree foxinsocks I don't think it is at all helpful to anyone to have work cultures where excessive hours are the norm, or a wife at home a hidden requirement for success.

I also think it is very unwise for women to assume that they will easily get their career back on track or 'just' start up a little business by working from home. I hear lots of women say this sort of thing but in practice very few people who have a significant break from professional work catch up with their peers who do not, and running your own business is very hard with a high failure rate.

My dh has certainly lost a huge amount of impetus from taking two periods of time out as a SAHD whilst I have yet to catch up after taking a step down due to emigrating (I've effectively lost seven years career progression).

I don't think that people shouldn't be able to choose to stay at home if they really want to and as a family can afford the long term financial hit of doing so, but I would certainly be horrified if either of my children suggested they were planning a non working future. Apart from anything else I'd like them to continue with their current plans to change the world

I don't think most working women look down on or belittle women who don't work I find it hard to understand how they can like and want and enjoy that. I do however think it is morally and politically a very bad choice for women which has big ramifications for the rest of us.

Xenia, I think it is the women who go back to work and act as if they have never had children that are doing a disservice to mothers in general. It is very hard for a mother to request part time/flexible working so she can spend more time with her children if there are other mothers in the office who still carry on with the long hours.

In DH's office there is a woman who went back to work full time and has a 6 month old. It's difficult for him to try and leave at 6 so he has some chance of seeing the kids before bedtime when she's still there working! (Not berating her, I'm sure she has her reasons, just making the point I don't think that way of life is great for women/the family either!)

As for your comment I find it hard to understand how they can like and want and enjoy that - you find it hard to understand how a parent would enjoy spending time with their children and watching them grow up?? Do you really find your own children that dull and uninteresting that you wouldn't want to spend more time with them?

I know DH would love it if we could both work part time and share childcare. I know one couple who does this and it works beautifully. Perhaps if more women and men said to their bosses 'hang on, I want to work differently now I have a family' this would become the norm.

i returned ft after 6mth mat leave,as i planned to and wanted to.your dh inability to leave before 6 isnt down to someone else.he could go and work bit on laptop at home.say hes looking emails,reports at home- like most others do. the ft working female colleague is not a hindrance to him,only if you r he perceive it to be.out of interest would you comment on a male working past 6pm?

Brilliantly put redstripey.

When women ape men, THEY make it more difficult for all women. Not those that SAH.

I don't understand leaving a baby at six months but that's it, isn't it? We're all different. What suits one won't suit another but I don't make statements that all mothers should SAH with their young babies. I don't care what others do, only what I do.

redstripey, it has to come from on top really

I've sat (and do sit) on 2 boards for companies in the UK. I am the only working parent with a working partner. I also happen to be the only woman. I'm not the only parent though. All the other men have stay at home wives. Every single one. Because of that, they work as late as they want, go out to drinks when they want. They don't need to do any of that. I truly believe none of that was necessary to get where they were but they convince themselves of that and no doubt their wives too. I certainly didn't work that way to get where I was.

Since I have sat on these boards attitudes have changed. I have always insisted I take all my leave (and I make sure everyone in my department does too). Most of these men seemed to think it was not the done thing to go off on family holidays or at least to make sure it looked like you were working for the majority of the time. I have actually stood up and said how ridiculous that is. Now they all take their leave and the attitude that it isn't 'the done thing' is slowly disappearing (it's also bad practice business wise not to take leave but that's another story...). It's about the culture of a workplace as much as anything else.

Some of the men are visibly relieved a woman is involved now. Lots of men feel they can't stand up to this ridiculous macho culture. But this is what I mean below - in general, more working women help workplaces. Sure, there will be some who take things to extremes and don't help but they will be the exception rather than the rule. Cherie Blair has some interesting insights on this - was looking for a speech she made but can't find it.

well being wholly dependent upon someone else wage is maybe why you worry about the hard working female in your partner office. suppose she is a threat to you.given you have to hope all your dh energies pay off.tsk tsk a hard working woman in the office,not at home watching cartoonito what is world coming to

Fox - I think you make excellent points and I agree with you.

This is what I meant by not apeing men.

Scottishmummy - you still haven't told me what you do ( or your partner does).

I think that's quite relevant. My sister has your beliefs but her husband is a teacher as is she so they simply can't afford a really good lifestyle on one salary.

hard work,ambition and drive are not solely male preserves,and it is derogatory to say a woman who works at her career apes a man.inference being such things are male domain.women should be at home,undertaking childcare and fluff and fold.as it suits them better?

anyhoo im at work and must crack on

Working all hours, not taking holidays or seeing your children is how many men behave and when women ape that, it helps no one. Least of all other women and their children.

That is what I was referring to ( and foxinsocks too, I think).

maybe some men work all hours as they are sole wage earner and have to. asno one else is working-perhaps if partner contributed and shared he too could do something less time demanding.but if a person is the sole earner it is v hard to decline a meeting,deadline as they have the pressure to maintain a family lifestyle single-handed

Scottishmummy, I only mention the woman in his office as she is the parent of the youngest child - of course there are other parents in the team, men and women. I guess, rightly or wrongly, she stands out in my mind as an example as she is a mother of a baby, plus I thought this was a debate about working women anyhow?

My point was, DH does make an effort to say quite clearly 'I'm going home now, I've done more than my hours and I want to see the kids'. He often does bring work home too. But in an office where a lot of people have kids there's a bit of 'well I have kids and I'm staying late, that's not an excuse...' It's the whole unpaid overtime culture of the british workplace that is the problem. Some people feel like they have to be seen to be working late to be doing their job properly.

Exactly, redstripey.

Foxinsocks, you are an example of why we clearly do need women in high places. Because often a woman's way of working is different - I don't think it's anti-feminist to say that!

I also want to point out that this becomes a problem at the other end too. We are all focussed on children at the moment.

I have 2 people in my team who are carers for their elderly parents. During the day a social care team visits but they need to do hospital visits etc. It is just as much a responsibility as small children tbh. Workplaces, as a whole, need to look at this sort of thing.

Scottishmummy, as I earn approximately 1/5 of what DH does, it's quite unlikely he'd want to drop to something less " demanding" and get me in on the act. Even supposing I wanted to.

Besides, he's like a pig in muck in his job.

why, thank you Jogon