to find this article on motherhood inFURiating?

[BlooferLady]

Guardian writer in 'motherhood is hell' shock

Disclaimer: je suis TTCing. Erm, for a LONG time!

I didn't want children for years. YEARS! Was violently opposed to it And you know why? Because it looked like one long unending saga of drudgery, misery, isolation and loss of identity and self-respect (I have a large family and thus had the opportunity to observe its effects up close every 18 months or so).

We're TTCing now - hormones and a little wisdom took over, and I would very much like to be a mother. And yet here on MN and in the press I find my old terrors reinforced, and this article sums it all up. Everything I feared is true...

BUT IS IT? By the end of the article I wanted to slap the woman. She complains of her life dwindling to a miserable compressed world of perma-exhaustion, leaking breasts, nappy changes, never seeing her old friends, losing her sense of a professional life, only ever socialising with mothers and mother and toddler groups, bitterly envying women who still go to work, angry with her partner for not helping out round the house...

Someone PLEASE tell me it doesn't have to be like this. I wanted to yell at her, get out of the damn house and DO stuff you moaning bint! No-one MAKES you go to mother and toddler groups - put the creature in a sling and wander round the V&A! Let your partner do a bottle feed in the evening and go out for a boozy dinner! Do some work from home! MAKE your partner help out!

Surely there are people here on MN whose entire character isn't subsumed into the drudgery of being a mother? Who continue to be lively, interested in the larger world, engaged with their friends, interested in their career, happy in their relationships, still maintaining a sense of self and self-respect? For motherhood extends, informs, illuminates their life - doesn't effectively end it! Because if not, I don't want children. AIBU?!

Yes, he does a good line in shouting doesn't he.

Xenia defines "in their right mind" as doing what she enjoys, i.e. focusing on a high-flying career: anyone who does other things or has other priorities is ipso facto not in their right mind.

Personally, I enjoy my career, but I also enjoyed the time I had at home with dcs when they were little. And the times I went out to work and left dh in charge (we tried various models over the years). I didn't think of myself as a servant any more than dh thinks of himself as a servant at this moment because he happens to be cooking dinner and washing up. Looking after dcs was a job worth doing. Not the only job worth doing, but one of them. Neither of us thought less of ourselves for spending time on it.

Bloofer, it is probably impossible to know beforehand whether your present half-glass-full personality is going to stay the same post-dcs; some people do change. But it doesn't have to be doom and gloom: I have actually got more full-glass since I became a mother; I quite simply have more sources of joy. I used to be quite touchy and dig myself down over minor snubs or upsets.

Yup yup, what Xenia said. (Except for the housewife part, I like doing that. Not because I'm a woman, just because I'm a born homebody and nurturer. I like to potter about :) ) But, and I may get flamed for this, I don't fit into my son's life. He fits into mine . Of course I do have to make concessions for things like soccer practice, bedtimes, regular meals, etc, but I don't really feel like my life should revolve around him. I don't want to teach him that the world works that way, because it doesn't. I adore him and make time for him, but I don't feel guilty about making time for myself. And he does not get equal say in family decisions. I have things the way I want them in my home, and when he is an adult he can have the same. Right now I'm tired, so I'm going to let him watch as many WonderPets episodes as he wants while I nap. :)

I don't think this means I love him any less than the Mommy Martyrs who go on and on and on about their sacrifices love their children.

Bloofer without a doubt motherhood has been the best most bloody amazing thing I have ever done -have had the highest of highs and the love I feel for my children is without comparison .
Maybe thats why the awful days are so depressing and lets face it ,its 24hour sheer exhaustion at times.

I loved going back to work when my Mat leave was up ,luckily DH and I were both on flexible contracts so no childcare needed . Its difficult to explain but I felt like 'me' again .

Cory I took what Xenia said to mean that people should do whatever it is they enjoy, which to me is doing house stuff. (I do work, but just pt and wouldn't mind giving it up TBH)

Some people are just miserable and lazy. Others make the most of life -stop worrying bloofer because I know which category you fall in to.

Xenia's post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Staying home and raising kids = housewife = servant. No recognition that it is something you could take pleasure and a sense of achievement from.

I am seriously considering not going back to work until kids are in pre-school/nursery. One of the things that puts me off is the thought that people will judge me on this and somehow think less of me. Which pisses me off as to my mind feminism and equality should be about recognising the value of what has been seen as 'women's work'. Not just knocking down barriers in the working world.

If people read Rachel Cusk's rather good book on becoming a mother I imagine it is pretty much as the Guardian article describes and the fault there again was woman as servant and martry doing it all, all the dull stuff and man as co parent doing very little - the very unfair deal which doesn't work for most people.

The solutino is easy - do those bits you want and the child benefits too.

I have did not mean to imply I didn't like chidlren of course. I adore them. I am now in my 27th year or something of being a parent. I loved being pregnant. I breastfed twins. I loved breastfeeding ( you can do it and work full time of course with ingenuity) and I adore work success and making al ot of money and home life - what is not to like in a balanced life. It's those who didn't pick careers well paid enough to ensure they can get that balanced life who get fed up or can't afford child care or who are in stuypid sexist marriages which result in woman cleaning up sick whilst man goes to work and has business lunches. More fool those women. let's hope their daughters make more sensible career choices.

No, I don't think it HAS to be that way, but I also think this is representative of many womens feelings and experiences and of course this one womans in particular - so I wouldn't resent her for writing about it.

I was shell shocked at the sudden gender divides that sprung up in my marriage almost immediately after our son was born. I think that the modern couple needs to know this missile of issues might be comming their way so they can prepare and start pounding it out - the sooner the better.

Some women choose to stay at home. Some women choose to work outside the home.

I may have misread your post actually Xenia, sorry about that. If I do stay home with the kids I will still be expecting help with housework and what not.

If you define your life by your job and how many times you go out a week and get pissed...then you will find motherhood as described in the article.

CheerfulYank, you are rightly named
Sarah, I honestly do appreciate your taking the time away from The Killing to talk to me, and you've really cheer me up.
Pony I heart you , but you knew that
Xenia I can see that your point of view might be unpopular (and I understand entirely what Muse is saying, and Muse it must be great to have that sense of clarity, though of cousre we don't know how you'll feel 9 months hence!) but I understand it.

Not everyone has a professional ambition that really does press on them and get them up in the morning. I do and it sounds a bit like Xenia does. And I think that's probably at the heart of some of my worries. When, like me, your whole being is consumed with a desire to achieve a particular THING, the idea that another THING might interfere with it is quite terrifying - especially if you think your whole character is going to change and become sort of dismal and 'low'. It is good to hear that one can pursue an ambition, of whatever kind (INCLUDING being a happy and fulfilled SAHM, if that's what it is), alongside motherhood.

I also do not intend to become a mummy martyr. I think there is a mix of adapting yourself a bit to accommodate children but also fitting them into your life. So maybe you can't do everything you used to just the way you would. But that doesn't mean you do nothing. I think Alpine put it really well earlier with her talk about fancy restaurants and Harvesters.

Miggsie fortunately, I don't! I daresay some do - but hey, they might find motherhood cures them of a slightly narrow sort of existence?!

Bloofer it is entirely likely that in a years time I will be desperate to go back to work. I am not making any decisions until I have to. Maybe I'll finally go and do my phd instead.

DO IT Muse! The PhD I mean.... (But you would expect me to say that). I think the key point I am endeavouring, in my own endearingly circuitous way, to make, is that whatever decisions mothers make, let them be happy with it. Let them, in fact, eat CAKE, both metaphorical and literal. On that subject, this here banana loaf isn't going to eat itself, is it? I'll be back ...

It's "women's work" and unpaid because it's low value. People of both sexes in all cutlures and now and in the past have outsourced cleaning and a lot of childcare whenever they can for obvious reasons. A few hours a day is great and most working parents rush home because they adore to cuddle adn chat to children but not all day every day.

I't's clearly not as simple as "picking a well paid career" is is Xenia, as I'm sure you well know. There are many people who have chosen careers which pay very well and yet find them meaningless and empty. Unfortunately it's the vocation type careers which sometimes pay relatively poorly, because people's dedication is taken advantage of. We will always need carers in old folks' homes for instance, and they do a job I could never do, but their pay is fucking pitiful. And it's not just a question of "oh I chose to work in Asda therefore I chose crap pay." It's obviously a question of opportunity and ability. I'm sure you must be playing devil's advocate in your assertion that craply paid people chose to be so, and if only they'd chosen to be a banker or a doctor they would have nothing to complain about.

Muse I was speaking to my sister the other day and she swallowed nervously and said she was thinking of not going back to work, as they could manage on one wage, and please could I not judge her. I found that really sad. All I said was that I judge her as being extremely fortunate!

I think one of the wonderful things about motherhood is that it takes your whole life away from you and then you get it back bit by little bit. It makes you appreciate those little things - a full night's sleep, a meal with friends, an undisturbed cup of tea.

I think the drudgery and the lack of sleep are closely related. If you get a sleeper, your OK. If you don't, you are doomed. Sorry..

melli agree about the sleep -its a killer .

Yes make her think you want to try it out...and secretly she might like a break herself but will be doing you a favour...

Thought the woman in the article sounded a bit childish..like she'd gone and got a new handbag and after a couple of weeks showing it off decided she was bored with it and couldn't give it back! Sad for the baby..

Another thing forgot to mention is that I worked in a museum before having children, so was used to pottering about and showing people round...Motherhood can be freedom from work if you choose.

I don't know whether you are looking for reassurance or honesty, but here is my bit.
I think the experience of becoming a mother and early motherhood really divides people into two groups and I think it is almost impossible to predict which group you will fall into. There are the 'summer of love with your best ever boyfriend' types and the 'horrid shock to the system with a side order of extreme loss of identity types' (strangely I think that the first few months of having a baby are often not that nuanced as the experience is so extreme.) I and most of my friends who had babies all had interesting careers and exciting fulfilling lives as single people. When we had our babies (mine is 6 months now) our reactions were totally different and often unexpected. My best mummy friend had been a total party animal, a journalist and very career focused. She had her baby at 41 and definitely fell into the first category, feeling that everything she had ever done before paled into insignificance compared with the wonder and joy of being a mum. I was more in the second camp and can relate to a lot of what the journo said. It is not a question of love- I love my DD desperately but the experience of motherhood was a huge shock to the system- the sleep deprivation was insane, the loss of freedom seemed absolute and yes, I did envy my husband's ability to get on with life pretty much as before. It is getting easier but to be completely honest I am still adjusting. I think a lot of it depends on the temperament of the baby- if you have a pop the creature in a sling and go to the V&A type of baby you are lucky- less so if you have a colicky, refluxy, screamy uncomfortable one. Babies can be a lot harder than they look when you see a snapshot of them asleep in cafes.
Funnily enough I think people often feel differently when they have their second children. Some of the people who experienced the shock and horror first time around seem to find the second time a breeze and vice versa.

I feared having children too and was still shocked by how hard it was. But as she gets older and more responsive I am starting to see the joys as well and it is getting better all the time. I am still very glad I took the plunge.

I'm achieving some sort of 'balance' by my partner taking the kids to her parents so I can prepare into the small hours. And I long for a nappy to change, the annoying negotiations with DS over which animal he wants to piss on next, which nappy bags to use and all the other small negotiations and compromises by which drudgery helps me know and trust him. Hope that helps the decision a little....

But seriously, be prepared for a huge amount of gendered flack you could not have expected to come your way whatever you do, a huge sense that every decision is personal and critical even if it isn't, a real societal problem with accepting children in 'adult' spaces (like the V&A or any museum or supermarket), and a sense that survival is at times enough and you'll be fine.

Did you know Rachel Cusk's DH minded the baby while she wrote the book about how hard it all was...I didn't quite get that...