To think the atheists on MN are a bunch of miserable whingers

[GothAnneGeddes]

Every bloody week it's a new thread whining on about how terrible it is that there is religion in the world.

A prominent feature of such threads is the intolerance and stupidity of religious folk, yet threads by believers insulting atheists are very rare.

Besides, aren't you all meant to be so happy to be freed from the shackles of religion, that you're too busy having fun to moan?

cantspel - "to ram their non disbelief down everyones throats."

Not sure that's possible, or even true (believers will just move on, unless they choose to argue - we're none of us forced to comment, and viewing is optional, too... the 'hide' facility is there for our benefit, should anyone feel the thread is boring or upsetting or plain dumb)

My main objection to religious views is that the young are generally 'forced' into accepting the word of one or both parents and rarely have the choice not to attend services if that is the decision of parent(s), nor can they argue their wish not to learn about whichever religion may be involved, and thus get little possibility of an "opt out".

On the other thread one person commented that RE covered several different religions and was most surprising because it was a R.C. school.

How many families are willing to provide "equal" information, and allow their child(ren) to choose some faith (or none) in a similarly impartial way ?

In many countries there have been religious "wars" so those born by chance to families believing in one religion are pitted against those of some other religion not by a wish to fight, but the randomness of a "line in the sand" (here splitting religious groups, elsewhere being national borders)... and all for what ? Some doctrine possibly centuries old, usually used to encourage "good" over "evil" based on concepts of reward vs damnation, to subjugate a populace into doing the will of some "superior" group which selects new "executive" members for the purpose of retaining the power to control.

As it appears several suggest theirs is the only valid faith and to reject others, it makes me think the whole lot is a set of lies, as not all of them could be true, and their similarities are such that it is as if someone heard/ read the views and adopted most aspects for their own power-hungry clique, with a few minor changes so they cannot be said the be identical. OK, no way to prove it, but no way to disprove it, either, since the vast majority of writings are centuries old.

Only modern day 'cults' are new enough to be able to prove their origins, and some of those have been sufficiently discredited as sex-obsessed older men using their influence to make "love of the leader" an excuse for as much sex with as many female followers as they can achieve.

I simply challenge anyone who suggests there is some deity "prove their case" and for the record, "being told" isn't adequate!

Roseflower, for my part in the last 7 days I've been:

Woken early on a Saturday morning after a night with a vomiting child by a Christian sect trying to convert me

Had abuse thrown at me while walking down the street by men who are offended by my hair showing.

Been abused by the bloke who preaches outside Brixton Tube station. For some reason he's got it into his head I'm a lesbian and will point at me and shout comments about unnatural women every time I pass.

Had to explain to my daughter that not everybody thinks girls are worthless and just because it says so in the bible (she got this from a schoolfriend) it doesn't necessarily mean it is so. Nor does she have to get married in order to have babies.

Had to ask a very junior male colleague to repeat, word for word, a technical explanation I have just given a man because his culture, underscored by his religion, makes it difficult for him to consider the word of a women to carry as much authority as that of a man.

Been stopped, daily on my journey to and from work by a group who want me to take a "personality test" with the aim of sucking me into their cult and making me pay endlessly for enlightment

Acted as a surrogate mother to a friend whose own relationship with his parents is almost non-existant as his father (a vicar) and mother will not acknowledge and find it difficult to accept their son's sexuality.

networkguy we have explained/discussed with both of our children what different people believe and they already know that their school forces them teaches them about being Christians. They know that me and DH don't beleive in a God and so we have explained the science part to them.

DD (9) has decided that she doesn't believe and we've checked her comprehension of this non-belief and it does seem she is really sure of herself about it all.

DS still doesn't really understand but regularly says, if there was a God, someone would have seen him". He is 6 now but in his first year in reception, he used to come home declaring this and that about God and Jesus and it was obvious that the school had been preaching to them as if it were proven fact. This really annoyed me as they weren't told about the Big Bang theory or Darwin; only that God made the world in 7 days. Now at age 4/5, what else is the poor child supposed to think if adults are spouting that at him?

I think faith schools shoudln't exist and instead, families and churches should be the place for religion, not schools. They should be for educating about all subjects, including RE but not specifically about one faith.

Rant over .

In the last 7 days how has religion adversly effected your day to day life?

Aside from being called a miserable winger just because I'm an atheist you mean?

Mainly for me it's a schools issue. Comparing a school I can't send DC to because we do not attend church 98% A-C GCSE pass rate, to the others in the area with less than 50% A-C GCSE pass rate does tend to focus the mind.

Also we have to regularly dodge the JW calling round.

Knitted, many, if not most atheists probably were brought up in a faith of some sort - I had a (very happy) Catholic upbringing, was in the Archdiocesan youth service, Christian Brothers school, the works. I am much more at peace with myself and the world as an atheist - it makes more sense for me, so please don't feel sorry for me, nor assume that atheists are ignorant of what the lives of the religious are like, as that's far from being true.

Roseflower, this thread would be an example. I've been called a miserable whinger!

Well I think I have been attacked far more than a misreable whinger on here! Count yourselves lucky.

As a little aside, this is quite ironic.......

A couple of years ago, I used to sing in a cathdral choir .

Was very strange, especially as I knew how religious the words I was singing were and I took part in Evensong every Tuesday. However, I think plain song and other religious music is truly beautiful and with my classically trained sporano voice, suits me very well. Singing solo in a cathedral or large church cannot be beaten.

I also love to sing Christmas carols - me and the kids get dancing and singing every december and put up the decs. It's a bit I know but just beacause I do not believe in a God, doesn't mean I can't appreciate church music or the buildings themselves.

Roseflower, no really I think you are reading something that isn't there. These accusations get flung about - miserable, whinging, vile and they stick.

You said you are..." quite surprised how vile some people on here have been- but I guess with a screen to hide behind people can be more extreme. (Not aimed at you, just a minority of posters who have been quite repugant)"

The way you phrase that makes it sound like you mean that people on this thread have been vile and repugnant. When I asked you where you said said 'generally'.

I find it hard to read the sentence that way - if you meant generally you would have used a different tense.

I am getting the impression that you say things you don't really mean (or haven't thought through) when you feel like your faith based convictions are being challenged (like the business of feigning confusion over the difference between spiritual faith and faith in someone's abilities, or saying that you were irked by someone offering informal definition of an everyday word rather than looking up a dictionary definition - people do this all the time). Maybe its not conscious, I guess its part of the self-defense mechanism of the religious meme.

A lovley post vintage

To be reminded what good faith has also done for society- beautiful music, buidings and Christmas.

I was simply answering your question, Rose... And I do count myself lucky, I'm a happy atheist, after all!

yy, vintage - atheism doesn't dull your sense of the beautiful or wonderful - far from it.

But Rose, an atheist would say that people created those things - music predates the major religions, and buildings can be beautiful whether they're for religious or secular purposes, plus many of the fun aspects of a midwinter festival pre-date Christmas.

I'm not anti-religion particularly (though I am anti enforced worship in schools and Thought for the bloody Day) but don't see that faith has necessarily anything to do with beauty or good or wonderfulness.

Himalaya, in fairness I think, as I said upthread, that people in general see things that they perceive to be personal attacks much more quickly and strongly than more neutral or even positive comments - strikes me as quite a universal human attribute.

Can't quite tell if you were being sarcastic there roseflower?

*Himyala"

And there you go! Another bit of what exactly I was taking about.

Should I laugh? Or cry?

Apparently "I'm reading something that isn't there"... well what certainly IS there is now Im being accused of:

"I am getting the impression that you say things you don't really mean (or haven't thought through)".

Im sorry but I already gave you a detailed account of about the faith defintion that clealry explained why you should be using academic source to state a fact.

The explanation was crystal.

Despite this you somehow twist into a "self-defense mechanism of the religious meme".

You already have an explanation. I am surprised it is something you are still thinking about.

This is entirely through your own imagination/ over sensitiivity. So Himyala it is you that is reading things that arent there.

Was thinking about why on earth is the bible so long?

why hasn't someone written an updated version? It could basically fit onto an A4 sheet, along the lines of the 10 commandments- perhaps titles something like 'A bible for Today'.

It'd be a lot quicker to read so perhaps more people would read and stick to it.
eg:

Be nice to all people
Don't cheat on your wife or partner
Look after your kids
Work hard and you'll reap the rewards
Buy Organic

Habibu, yes I agree it is a universal human attribute, we all do it. 'tis true.

But what religion does I think is condition people to see criticism of ideas as personal attacks, which they then rise to.

For example the reaction to the Mohamed cartoons.

Something along those lines I think would be better suited to today's society.

Roseflower -

So did you mean people on this thread have been vile and repugnant then, or just generally?

And also in fairness, Roseflower, when you explain something and you think that your explanation is crystal clear, that isn't necessarily the case for your readers.

yy, Himalaya - one thing that's always got me is how people that I know can get really angry at things they deem offensive to God - I'd always assumed that a god, if it existed, would frankly, be big and omnipotent enough to cope.

Rosewater, I said "a good act by a religious person will be (by their own admission) what their church feels is a good thing to do"

Think about it for a moment before claiming it isn't true. Name something you did that was good, but which your church disapproved of. :)

A good act may be encouraged by the church AND something the person wanted to do anyway, but one of the popular claims for Christianity is that it makes bad people act good. To hear religious people talk you'd think that acting decently was as hard as an alcoholic staying sober. That only with the help of other Christians and lots of prayer can someone be a decent human being.
I'm not sure that acting good with the help of a support group is more to be proud of then just acting decently in the first place.

Atheists manage without the carrot and stick.

Some of the highlights include being told I am mean to fairies, and on another thread that I MUST support war, rape, McDonalds and Justin Beiber.

There has many assumptions been made about me- that I think other religions must be wrong, that I must believe in creatonisim.

There have been many,many attempts to imply the relgious are stupid.

I think some of the worse things said in general have been someone saying "dont bugger your children" and that if a Muslim get attacked it most likely a Christian.

Tell me; if as an atheist you were accused of these things, for no other reason than you are an atheist how would you feel?

vintageteacup, I like your idea of the shorter bible, but I'm going to split from your sect and start my own.

Be nice to all people
Don't cheat on your wife or partner
Look after your kids
Work hard and you'll reap the rewards
Buy LOCAL Organic

Ha! people who buy organic that isn't from local farms are anathema to god.

They will be forgiven and allowed into heaven, but not to sit on his right hand. Instead they will have seats down the front behind the woman with the big hat.

.

I am of the opinion that I'd prefer to buy local organic but if they don't do local organic then I'd rather have anywhere organic rather than not organic.

You know who could be the new God in 'A Bible for Today' ??

Hugh Fernly W .