To think the atheists on MN are a bunch of miserable whingers

[GothAnneGeddes]

Every bloody week it's a new thread whining on about how terrible it is that there is religion in the world.

A prominent feature of such threads is the intolerance and stupidity of religious folk, yet threads by believers insulting atheists are very rare.

Besides, aren't you all meant to be so happy to be freed from the shackles of religion, that you're too busy having fun to moan?

Sorry Darkskies to many posts!

I am not Catholic so I would not be the right person to answer your q's.

I dont know for sure if I believe in hell. I don't believe in the devil.

I may be Chrsitian but I dont follow every standard belief just because Im told so. I think about things for myself and what feels right to me.

My vicar doesnt beleive in the devil or hell. Infact she is undecided about the afterlife at all!

Which is what I mean. You cant assume x or y is a Christian they must believe this.

Interestingly, my ds (10) asked me today (and BTW: I have not discussed this thread or threads like this at home) why there was no discussions in RME about "non-belief"? Why were they just learning about Christians, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus? Why weren't they also talking about the fact that some people didn't need to believe anything?

He also asked if he could get a copy of the bible because he wanted to understand the stories in it. (I have no problems with that BTW - his grandmother will be delighted to get him one)

He also said that he couldn't read the Q'ran because it was only available in Arabic and Urdu

Vintage - but as has been repeated ad nauseam on this thread, atheism isn't a faith or a religious belief, it's basically an opinion, so why should they teach it in schools alongside other religious beliefs?

You can't have it all ways.

SGB - While racism and xenophobia are definitely factors, many of the tedious conversations I have been subjected to stem from a hostility to religion, full stop.

Ah- I'm sorry roseflower- am I going mad? I thought you said it was a catholic qualification... I was assuming it would give you some standardised answers to common questions type thing; a FAQ.

And sorry- personal Qs I know... but how can one be a christian and not believe in the devil? Didn't the devil tempt Jesus in the wilderness? Did that not happen, or is it an allegory or soemthing?

And I am even more by a vicar that doesn't believe in the afterlife... what will happen when is she receives salvation then?

I didn't say it was a faith or religion - I just thin they should inform students from an early age that not everyone believes in a religion and in some detail that gives them choice.

The certificate was quite simple- more of a thing into the practicalness of it all. I just did it out interest really.

I think the devil is a metaphor for the evil inside us all. God gave us freewill and we have the abilty to do wrong or right. I could be wrong; after all maybe the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making us think he didnt exist...The story of Jesus in the desert to me, is about being tested.

I think the vicar was undecided. I think she was questioning if heaven and hell was all about there here and now on earth. I think she was reassing and making her mind up. Going through a philisophical time.

The bible is very open to intreptation. I guess if wipe the slate clean and read it with fresh eyes you can come away with different conclusions to what was taught.

Pretty bird why the bolding for 'and Urdu'?

FYI Translations of the meaning of the Quran are available in many languages including English.

Interesting... I am intrigued about devil as metaphor. I always think that people view people who lived iin the past as more simpoe or ignorant than now, and am interested that people writing the bible 2000 years ago would be complicated enough to come up with the concept of evil inside us, though I suppose the serpent in eden is also really a metaphor then.

The bolding was becasue he thinks that those are the only two languages that the Q'ran is allowed to be printed in. I'm sorry - I should have made that more clear.

It's an illustration of the reality that all the Muslims he comes into contact with are Punjabi in origin.

Roseflower

Thanks for your reply. The really big issue here is miracles - by which I mean anything that bends the laws of physics to it's will: magic, 'unexplanable in material terms' Any kind of intervention between god and the world falls into this category.

Any religious or supernatural story could have a number of explanation - true miracle, metaphor, myth, mistake or trickery.

Did moses part the sea? Did Mohammed take dictation from god? Did Jesus die and come back to life?etc...

You say the laws of physics are regular except they don't apply to Jesus (except that they did most of the time since he looked like a human being not like a science fiction creature)

If that's the case then none of the old testament miracles really happened (which begs a lot of questions for the new testament) Mohammed didn't really communicate with god, but just plagerised other religions etc...(which is probably more offensive about Islam than you want to be)

If the laws of physics can be changed for one man, why not others e.g. Moses etc...And how can we possibly know?

I'm not sure I'm explaining this point well (it's late) but I do think it is shocking that people don't get this basic bit of philosophy of science through education.

Night folks

Not to sound horribly picky, but Punjabi folks speak Punjabi (it's an area and a language). Many Pakistanis speak Urdu.

Back to the Quran, it is only ever in Arabic, versions in other languages are known as translations of it's meaning.

Sorry to be picky back - but the Pakistanis in Glasgow do mostly speak Urdu - although IIRC, school communications get translated into Punjabi as that can be more easily understood if they happen to be Punjabi speakers - and Urdu speakers can read Punjabi.

Sorry - it's late and i really should be going to bed: Glasgow is home to many Pakistani and Indian Punjabis. It was explained to be that that was why "our" "Indian" restaurant sell pakora and not bhajis, because the chefs are Punjabi not Bengali (and we get fantastic home made pakora to sell at our school fair :)).

GAG: I thought (obviously wrongly) that you meant you had been verbally abused by strangers in the street because you are visibly religious ie you wear a headscarf. That's unacceptable, of course. However, people disagreeing with you (eg saying that there are no gods) is them expressing their opinion, which they have as much right to as you do.
That I demonstrate no respect for superstitions and regard them all as equally silly on a public forum is because I think it is vitally important to be able to mock and criticize other people's viewpoints when they are wrong.
ANd I have yet to recieve a satisfactory answer from anyone in the superstiton camp as to why their particular imaginary friend is more real than other people's eg if you believe in Jesus you should be given special legal privileges, but if you believe in fairies it's OK for people to laugh at you and tell you to grow out of it. People have sincere beliefs in all sorts of major and minor deities, so really the law of the land should treat the lot as a private matter and expect people to keep their preferred brand of nonsense to themselves.

Yes. I've just said Pakistanis mainly speak Urdu.

I think atheism should be discussed in RE lessons because for some children they may never have heard that simple non-belief is even an option. It could also cover the usual bollocks about how atheists must have no morals, the pathetic "There are no atheists in a fox-hole" rubbish and so on.

Gosh.I don't know what schools you have gone to experience that Snorbs. Not experienced anything like it once.

I'm not saying those canards are general currency in UK school lessons but they are commonly heard from the religious when discussing atheism in general.

So if a child has been brought up in a heavily religious household they may well have picked up such inaccuracies and a broad-based RE lesson may be the only place where they learn just how much bollocks they are.

I never heard any religious person say that about atheisim once. Not once.

I have by Jehovah's Witness's on my doorstep. And quite a few times online.

The basic reasoning seems to go that if you're an atheist then you don't believe God's law and God's law is the only "real" source of moral behaviour. Therefore if you don't follow God's law, you have no moral structure.

"There are no atheists in foxholes", used as a way of implying that in times of stress everyone will accept God(s), is so ancient there's even a wikipedia page about it. Are you really saying you've never heard that saying? How strange.

You like to sterotype people based on a couple of experiences?

Im sorry but there has been far vulgar things said to religious people on this forum alone.

I know the foxhole saying. Yet another case of someone making a wild non-scencial assumption based on their own imagination.

Roseflower - very odd that you have never heard that saying. Perhaps you are not as educated or well-read as you like to think.

As for my "never asking" religious people questions, I have spent 15 years doing that. I have concluded that they are always going to give the same frustrating, illogical, nonsensical answers, so what's the point?

Oh Roseflower, I used to work in the Bengali community. It was something that was frequently asked of me. My students couldn't understand why, if I believed in no god (of any flavour), I wasn't out robbing and murdering. It was the fear of hell that kept them on the (slightly) straight and narrow. By definition if I had no fear of hell, there was nothing to stop me merrily defrauding and pillaging my way through life.

I am confused: the reality for ds (and the area where we live) is that the Muslims he comes into contact with are Pakistanis who are also Punjabi and who speak Urdu . The Indians he comes into contact with are also Punjabi but tend to be Sikh or Hindu.

I had found it interesting that he had assumed that he couldn't read the Quran in English because (he thought) it was only available in Arabic or Urdu. I had suggested that if he were interested in reading the bible, he should also think about reading the Quran.

Anyway, it is a side issue to the discussion raging on here

... that was addressed to GothAnneGeddes