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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think the atheists on MN are a bunch of miserable whingers

568 replies

GothAnneGeddes · 21/03/2011 01:33

Every bloody week it's a new thread whining on about how terrible it is that there is religion in the world.

A prominent feature of such threads is the intolerance and stupidity of religious folk, yet threads by believers insulting atheists are very rare.

Besides, aren't you all meant to be so happy to be freed from the shackles of religion, that you're too busy having fun to moan?

OP posts:

MistyValley · 22/03/2011 21:17

Roseflower - I don't understand your position that discrimination doesn't exist.
If a religious school PREFERS religious applicants for teaching positions then that is discrimination, even if they also CONSIDER non-religious teachers.

Himalaya · 22/03/2011 21:20

Roseflower

"Vountary aided faith schools can appoint, remunerate and promote teachers on grounds of their religion, without needing to show it is an occupational requirement.

More alarmingly still, any teacher at a voluntary aided faith school can be dismissed for ?conduct ...which is incompatible with the...tenets of the religion? of the school, even
if they were not appointed on grounds of their religious beliefs, and even where the conduct only concerns the private life of the teacher.

Thus the religious requirements that can be imposed on a PE or maths teacher at a voluntary aided school go far beyond those that could be applied even to the chief executive of, for example, a Catholic adoption agency."

Source http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/10976 ekklesia

MistyValley · 22/03/2011 21:20

"No faith school is going to leave a vacancy open because they can't find anyone of the right faith"

As long as they are talking about applicants in terms of the 'RIGHT' faith, then that is discrimination.

Himalaya · 22/03/2011 21:21

trying link again

GrimmaTheNome · 22/03/2011 21:22

Education is about the only sector (other than religious institutions themselves) where religious discrimination is allowed.

Its ethically indefensible. (That doesn't stop those with a vested interest defending the status quo, of course). A teacher should be appointed on the basis of ability to teach, not because they happen to have references from religious leaders.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 22/03/2011 21:23

frantic, faith schools are allowed to discriminate on religion when employing staff, they are specifically exempted from the law on that.

Sorry, roseflower, did you just argue that
a) it's OK for one's religion to be part of the criteria you need to meet to get a job.... and then that
b) atheists are not discrimininated against when religion is part of the criteria you need to meet to get a job?

I mean, I don't want you to think I'm trying to discredit your intelligence, but....

LadyOfTheManor · 22/03/2011 21:25

My minister asked last night in Bible study, what being a Christian has done for us.

I said it's unified millions of people.

Look on the bright side, atheists are entitled to their opinion otherwise God's will of free will wouldn't exist...atheists being atheists just reconfirm God's Word (prophecy!)

MillyR · 22/03/2011 21:28

Himalaya, is that really true about teacher's private lives? If it is the case it is bound to be overturned in a court case in the future.

pointythings · 22/03/2011 21:30

LOTM - Unification is great. Can your minister come here and talk about it to the at least 30 different evangelical churches that have sprung up around us (lots of Americans living here), which seem to have schisms every other Wednesday?

Then again we atheists seem to be splitting into the Dawkinsite (religion is stupid/bad/abusive) and the Live And Let Live camps (to which I firmly belong).

I just had another thought - I am an atheist because it makes me happy I don't think I can go more fundamental than that.

Himalaya · 22/03/2011 21:32

MillyR

I hope so.

Its what the law says. My anecdotal experience is of a friend who is nominally Catholic, and taught in a Catholic school. She is a never-married single mum and it was made clear that her family situation was frowned upon and she should keep it quiet at school.

Himalaya · 22/03/2011 21:33

I mean I hope it gets overturned...

frantic51 · 22/03/2011 21:36

Himalya of course I wasn't arguing that I shouldn't have to pay the NHS, that would be ludicrous.

Actually, much of the meat served in hospitals, prisons etc is halhal.

Down to economics, the British taxpayer is going to have to stump up for new premises or buy the existing buildings and land from the churches if they want to abolish the voluntary aided faith schools. Everyone here prepared to do that?

MillyR · 22/03/2011 21:37

That is a strange position for them to take, because the Catholic church teaches that in the event of a pregnancy, people should not get married if they don't love each other. So I can't see what sin your friend is currently committing.

MillyR · 22/03/2011 21:41

In the event of all faith schools being shut down (which I'm not convinced is a good idea), the justification for why the church gets so much tax relief would be even further reduced. In which case the government could end tax relief for the church and use that money to buy the land.

Roseflower · 22/03/2011 21:44

TheHeathenOfSuburbia

^Sorry, roseflower, did you just argue that
a) it's OK for one's religion to be part of the criteria you need to meet to get a job.... and then that
b) atheists are not discrimininated against when religion is part of the criteria you need to meet to get a job?

I mean, I don't want you to think I'm trying to discredit your intelligence, but....^

So sorry heathen but no.
Did I say the criteria of being a certain religion. Well did I?

No I said as any profession you have to meet a criteria- noone is entitled to a job. You can't say "Im a qualified doctor Im ENTITLED to a job". There is a criteria such as qualifications, attitude, competece, experience, fitting in with team etc.

You earn the job.

It never ceases to amaze me how people make some argument out of some imagined text.

frantic51 · 22/03/2011 21:45

The tax relief on property is to safeguard our national heritage because the church owns so many historically important buildings. It's got little or nothing to do with the schools.

MillyR · 22/03/2011 21:48

That would be a good solution to the problem Roseflower. They could set up a qualification in faith school teaching, which anybody would be eligible to take regardless of their beliefs. The faith schools could then employ people based on them holding that qualification, rather than employing them based on their faith.

Roseflower · 22/03/2011 21:49

Thank you for your link Himalya. If you don't mind I would like to spend time researching this for myself before passing comment. Sorry it's just the way I work.

However if it is true it's disgraceful.

It is a awful about your friend in the Catholic school. In the Catholic schools I have worked in I have never seen anything as sad as that happen to a member of staff. It was all pretty easy going.

Himalaya · 22/03/2011 21:50

MillyR - I think it was more about giving a 'bad example' to the children of having sex outside of marriage in the first place.

Frantic - you were arguing that there was some reason why Catholics shouldn't pay for the NHS providing medical procedures for others that are proscribed by their religion though?

I don't think there is a chance in hell of abolishing voluntary aided faith schools for the reason you stated. But I don't think it would be out of the question to make it a condition of continuing to receive state funding that they give up their exemption from equal opportunities law and stop discriminating on the basis of parent's' religious practice. Thats what ekklesia is calling for. It seems a reasonable request.

MillyR · 22/03/2011 21:50

Frantic, no, that applies to VAT, and the government has scrapped a lot of that because of the cuts. The church does now have to pay tax on many repairs to buildings.

Roseflower · 22/03/2011 21:56

MillyR there is the Catholic Certificate in Teaching which I did. Nothing for Cof E etc though to best of my knowledge

MillyR · 22/03/2011 22:01

Roseflower, did you do that at the same time as your PGCE/BA ed? Could you do it within your teacher training college or did the diocese organise it?

Roseflower · 22/03/2011 22:02

I did at same time as PGCE but went through a distance learning programme. The uni were useless at arranging it!

MistyValley · 22/03/2011 22:04

How would qualifications in faith school teaching work though? Would you have to have one qualification per faith, or a 'one size fits all' faith school qualification? Which religions would it cover?

TheHeathenOfSuburbia · 22/03/2011 22:04

roseflower - So a) was wrong, then? You think it's not OK that one's religion is part of the criteria you need to meet to get a job.

Fair enough.

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