to want some space from my au pair.

[LadyDisdain]

DH thinks we should invite the au pair to join us if we have friends round to the house for supper or brunch. I would prefer if we did our own thing.

She is happy and settled and has lots of her own friends. I would like to be able to socialise with mine without her being present because she is quite, erm, chatty.

DH thinks I'm mean to not want to include her. I want some boundaries. She spends a lot of time with us. I don't mind her coming in to say hello and chatting for 10 or 15 minutes, but surely we are entitled to some privacy? I wouldn't join in if her friends visited, though would meet them and be perfectly friendly.

Am I unreasonable?

Winter, I question her emotional intelligence for other reasons. She is fairly immature, and this is my general impression of her. Though, as I keep repeating, I am very fond of her and I want her to be comfortable and happy.

We do have a contract in place and I did try to establish the issue of "space" at the very beginning. But clearly not successfully.

Interesting that it's quite polarised.

My answers were written because I genuinely had not realised that the traditional au-pair no longer exists in the UK.

If she is an employee, and her contract says so, then you are being reasonable.

If she came to you believing that she would be a traditional au-pair and treated like a guest who is expected to do the school run and entertain the children and generally be part of the family, then you are unreasonable.

but new2cm, even if she thought she would be part of the family, I think it's totally reasonable that the OP expects to have time alone with her friends!

She is normally involved - but the OP wants to have private conversations of the very normal type that take place between groups of friends - she is entitled to have a social life, despite having a young adult staying, who is not a close friend, even though they may get on well.

A 21 year old, no matter how much they are part of the family, even if they were treated as a relative, should give her hosts some time with their friends. And its not remotely unreasonable to expect this.

I do not want to hi-jack the thread so I am going to start another one in the hope to get myself educated about the roles of au-pairs.

OK, I have done some research and found this:

www.peterpanaupairs.co.uk/whatis.html

The Au pair is not
The au pair IS NOT an employee or a professionally trained cleaner, domestic help, child minder or Nanny. They are not capable of running an entire household when parents are absent for business or personal travel. Responsibility for the welfare of children always remains the responsibility of the parents.

Now I am completely by I still stand by my previous bar one post.

I think you needed to set the boundaries at the outset so I think the only way you can do it now is to offer a pizza/DVD and say it's a formal (work) dinner.

Supper only though - if you have a brunch I presume your children are also there? In which case it's not on to exclude her.

I know what you mean, it's just too much having to consider the au pair, the cook, the butler and the scullery maid. Sometimes I think I've barely enough time to beat them all before bad-time.

YANBU - you should be allowed to socialise with friends in your own home. You have said it is occassional. You have said she is usually included. You have said she is a bit self-absorbed.

It is daft to suggest she should be included in every aspect of your life - next she'll be allowed to walk & do a shit while you're having a bath. She is not your daughter. She is an adult ffs!

YANBU and I would wonder why your DH wants her around when she does not need to be

Oh the butler likes it when I whip him. It's all in the wrist.

I appreciate the different perspectives here and having been mulling. Of course I most appreciate those who agree with me :) Thanks Waterrat, bringonthegoat and others.

Oooh Heracles - what's bad time - sounds like fun... do you need to bring keys??

LadyD - YANU to want your own time/space/friends, but it's difficult.

You have chosen to have another adult living in your house, for your convenience. She is a person, living there, for now it is her home - not just her work place.

It's hard work living in someone elses house; not knowing if you are being more polite to stay and chat or more polite to say 'Hi' and run. Not knowing if they think you are there too much or not joining in enough. Just not knowing what is expected and acceptable. It's pretty shit at times to be honest.

It's really quite horrible to say she lacks the emotional intelligence to work this out for herself - you don't actually know what's appropriate and what isn't, you and your DH can't agree - yet you feel it's OK to be rude about her 'take' on it.

She is living in your house, the onus is on you to make her feel comfortable.

If you were to do as has been suggested and say to her that the adults will be eating together, she'd be well within her rights to tell you to piss off - she's 21 not 12. I can't believe some people have actually said that... beggars belief.

However, you and your DH disagree on the level on involvement/inclusion, so that is something you need to sort out.

Do you spend significantly more time with her than he does during the week?

You need to have a really good talk with him about this - you don't want to be rowing over it!

I suggest that once you have talked to DH and agreed what level of inclusion you will be inviting her to have, that you have a talk to her and tell her what that is - nicely, without being patronising.

Also - if you and your friends are having brunch/dinner - does this mean she doesn't have access to the kitchen?

I can see it from both sides, as I said, it can be really shit living in someone elses house (even when you like them) and it can be shit having someone else there all the time - even when you need & like them!

You need a house with an annex

I genuinely think some people are missing the point - this is occassional social events where it is TOTALLY inappropriate for her to be there.
I have devised a guide for DH -
Big bbq in the garden- invited, DC or your birthday - invited, canapes and cocktails/party for several friends - invited, selective brunch - GO AWAY, supper with a few friends - GO AWAY, chat with mate about IVF - FUCK OFF!

And what chipping said.

I think YANBU - she is not a family member and even if she was I'd be inclined to ask a 21 year old for space to socialise with MY friends.

You give the au pair the same courtesy when her friends are around so I think she should appreciate your viewpoint on this.

If you do have a talk with the au pair and she doesn't get the message then start intruding dropping in when her friends are visiting (you could even see if you can use all the words in the recent 35 year old words thread). She should understand you loud and clear soon enough.

Plus, ask your DH this - does he want to hang around with the au pair and her 21 year old friends? Actually scrap that idea

But you get the idea - she has her social circle and you and your DH have his, unless you combine the two then they should definitely be separate.

YABU. My understanding is that an au pair should be treated as one of the family. They are not a servant. So fair enough, a grown up dinner with your friends - it would be entirely appropriate to get her pizza, sent her to the pictures, like you would with a teenage daughter.

A family brunch, absolutely she should be invited. If you want "professional" help, you have to pay professional wages.

I am so glad I wasn't an au pair for some of the people on this thread!

I was an au pair for in Spain, and I was treated as a member of the family. When I arrived I tried disappearing into my room after dinner, because I had read that au pairs should give the family time without the au pair around. The mother came to my door to see what was the matter and told me to join them in the sitting room. I got the distinct impression that they would have been insulted if I had distanced myself from them.

I ate with the family, watched telly every evening with them, went to family outings and sunday dinner at la casa de los Abuelos with all the extended family. I didn't get a lot of 'free' time per se, because it was almost like I was a cousin who was being 'kept' in exchange for helping out with the kids, but I was included with the adults too, IFSWIM.

I was terrified when I arrived because I didn't speak any Spanish. But I was treated with warmth and consideration. I was paid peanuts but the experience was amazing, and I am fluent in Spanish as a result.

YANBU. When I was 21, even in my parent's home, if they had friends around for "wine and cheese" etc I'd say hello and be friendly if I was around when they arrived, but I'd definitely not go into the lounge after they'd shut the door!

Sounds like she's being a bit thick-skinned to me, but maybe it's a cultural thing? Different country, different way of sending out/picking up vibes?

I think you need a nanny, OP. Not an au pair. Because while I understand your irritation in having to include a garrulous outsider in your activities, YABU since there is an expectation that au pairs live as part of their host families. In practice, this doesn't actually mean stalking your every move but certainly it is not unreasonable to include brunch with family and friends. So I'm not surprised that your au pair would like to be involved in things.

Perhaps you need to work out an agreed level of involvement with your dh and present this to the au pair so that she knows where she stands - something along the lines of which events she is welcome to play a part in and which you would prefer to remain "private". But actually, I'm thinking that while you'd pay more for a nanny, the a more formal employer/employee relationship that would be conferred might suit you better.

New2cm it's been done many times in CMs nannies amd au pairs when the old rules were abolishedsnd people had to become employers in about 2008?

Many agencies haven't caught up, which is why MNers do t recommend relying on their advice. Their supposed association has only just realised, as the result of a tribunal, that au pairs are entitled to pro rata holidays.

Some of what they say is right, an au pair isn't a nanny or a prifessional cleaner for example but they are an employee (well, a worker but unless you have a multiple-staff household the distinction is nil) they are able under law to be given duties which equate to running a household (although whether they should be expected to or not is a totally different matter) and parents aren't breaking the law if they leave them responsible for children. Also the rates quoted are well out of date. Most au pairs, for 35 hours are offered just below the LEL. Any EEA national (excluding some A2 nationals) can work unlimited hours within the bounds of the Working Time Directive, and do any job, anyone on a tier 4 visa can do unlimited hours in any job.

That said it's important to factor in the expectations of the person coming. It's up to the family to make the level of involvement clear but even where they're treated like an additional child or a cousin there are times when anyone is within their rights to say 'look, we want some time with our friends' particularly if said friend is going through a tough time, but pre-warning is probably necessay.

If you plan to exclude the au pair from everything you do as a family, they won't be welcome in communal areas after working hours etc then you can't pay live in wages. But there are degrees of separation!

Tier 5 visa (youth mobility scheme).

Tier 4 is student, who could work as an AP but different and more restrictive rules applying on working hours and study priorities.

You said she has friends so why don't you give some money for her and her friends to go out and see a movie and get something to eat ? Give her some time off ?

How big is your house by the way?

You said she has friends so why don't you give some money for her and her friends to go out and see a movie and get something to eat ? Give her some time off ?

How big is your house by the way?

Some amazing attitudes on here. We had 6 au-pairs (one disaster). Two stayed for almost two years, and the other three for the whole year and were sorry to go. They are a brilliant form of childcare and it is a cultural exchange. Expectations have to be made very clear from the beginning - including all the boring bits like laundry every day - emptying the machine, hanging, folding, ironing. We made it crystal clear that the au-pair would be alone for much of the day and would have to be independent.

Ours did about an hour of light duties every morning, met our dd from school at 3.30 and made tea for both children, including play dates, etc., some nights she had a very easy time if the dc's were out or at activities. It was essential that ours could prepare easy meals.

In return we organised language classes - usually two hours three times a week and paid for the final term if they had done a good job - also a great place to make friends. There was also a babysitting round worked up by au-pair one as another way of earning some extra money. Within about six weeks all our au-pairs were pretty independent and wouldn't have wanted to join a dinner party. First couple of weeks we took them to see the sights in London and during their stays always included them in family birthday dinners, etc. During the week they ate with the children and at weekends with us. I always said happy to chat up to about 8 but then I want some space.

We always employed a cleaner as well so our au-pairs were never expected to clean and rarely I think did the full 25 hours per week. The last four were all Swedish because the language was easier and we ended up with the younger sister of the first Swedish au-pair (whose wedding we are looking forward to this summer).

In addition, they got two return flights home during the year.

I don't think we treated our au-pairs either as servants or as friends - they were rather like an older teenage child (and if any of you have teenage children you may appreciate that they really don't want to socialise with middle aged old farts and their friends). I think ours also got a pretty good deal financially. Pocket money of 70 a week, two free flights, subsidised language tuition, all food and bills found, and a fabulous room with en-suite, tv, stereo and wi-fi in a very nice home, plus probably an extra 30 to 40 for babysitting for our friends every week. I would also say that when our au-pairs had their au-pair friends round for the evening - they certainly didn't want me or the DH invading their space and that works both ways.

Our au-pairs also did up to two evenings of babysitting each week.

It can be a very cheap form of childcare and for us worked much better than a nanny would. It is not, however, IMO suitable for the under fives. dd was 6 when we had our first and 11 when we had our last.