to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

[OurBetty]

there is no god?

But Intelligent Design/ Creationism is bollocks. What's the definition of "bollocks"? I'd say "something asserted as true when there is plain, clear, unarguable evidence to the contrary - not ambiguous data."

ID/Creationism claims the earth is 6000 years old and God put fossils there to bamboozle us all. What a jolly japester. I bet he's a laugh at kids' parties.

The Earth is not 6000 years old, it is many billion. That's a fact, like the fact that objects fall when dropped, and the sun is a massive ball of gas, and we breathe oxygen. It's. a. FACT.

Yet unquiet dad you open your post with "Intelligent Design" is bollocks. Sorry, but its just not academic.

If your not saying "I believe" etc then you are ascertaining you, unquietdad have the unquestionable answer.

You presume the answers conflict with my beleifs.Never said that.What I said was people should not claim something as fact when it is not. They should make it clear its what they believe. Otherwise its sheer arrogance.

It's not arrogance to claim a fact is a fact. How can it be? Otherwise I'd be arrogant for saying gravity works.

YANBU

"Roseflower Sun 20-Mar-11 02:39:37

Firstly many people believe in a creator and evolution, may it be on a micro scale or not.

Secondly no-one fully understands evoloution as of yet due to lack of observations,gaps in fossil records, new discoveries and arguments amongst the science communities and so on. It is still a theory with gaps to fill. This does not mean evolution is wroung or to be dismissed, but to believe you understand it fully is wrong and presenting it is absoloute fact could also be argued as wrong."

No. Evolution is an obserable process. It can be seen in populations with a very short lifecycle, such as insects.

Even in human beings...

Oh and intelligent design is just an insideous attempt to get creationism in by the back door.

Well, if you are so sure of all these facts phone the newspapers immediatley! Tell them you solved the mysteries of life.

Because then the whole world can stop worrying ourselves with these silly questions and get on with thinking about just the trivial cant we?

There are no absolute facts in science. But neither is their belief in the way religious people use it, its just an inane attempt to bring scientific debate down to a lower level and make it analogous to religious belief.

But yes there are facts, as in things we can be very sure of due to the overwhelming evidence in favour or otherwise. And we can categorically say that the theories behind creationism are bogus. We know that the earth is older than 6000 years old. We know this via rigorous empirical research. We know. We do not need belief.

I don't need to phone the newspapers. Most of them, thankfully, are not under any delusion that the Earth is 6000 years old.

You believe in gravity, right? And that the sky is blue? And that the Earth goes round the Sun? And the moon is not made of green cheese? Just thought I'd better check. Because these things are hardly more earth-shattering than the fact that "ID" (a misnomer if ever there was one) is a load of made-up nonsense.

Good grief. I can't believe I am actually still having to debate this crap with adults in the 21st century.

If you believe in intelligent design, you are deluded. This is not being rude, this is rather obvious. You are laboring under a delusion, a false idea which is easily disproved. You are delusional.

It is acceptable to use words that accurately describe things.

Getting upset and offended is no substitute for a serious argument.

But then religious belief is a purely emotional stance..

Oh classic unquietdad. Wondered how long it would take you to sink to the argument that anyone who doesnt blindly go along with everything in science must be so stupid.

Some of us dont need everything neatly tick-boxed of us and quite like to stay open minded.

Some of us also like to think for ourselves and neither neatly fall into the "Im a such a thick creationist" category or the "Im a superior evolutionsit" category either. Oh the shock.

"
But then religious belief is a purely emotional stance.."

where is your evidence for this, stuck? Is this a result of your own faith conviction?

Could you maybe stick to what people say, Roseflower, and not imagine extra bits to argue against.

Creationists can't be that smart on the whole though, can they? You can think for yourself all you like, but when you go so far off the reservation yuo've lost tough with reality you can't be too surprised when people point it out to you.

Yes, actually. I was once religious. I'm now an athiest.

That and I have never seen or heard any justification for faith that wasn't emotional. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, however pretending that it's anything else is delusional.

UD - not sure what you are forcing yourself to debate over. If it's whether the Earth is more than 6,000 years old/gravity/the like, or is it someone else?

YABU

I am afraid then you are being 'delusional'. (see! name calling works exactly the same both ways!)

I have a well-thought out basis for my particular faith, but I have no faith in your maturity to understand something like this. And I'd hate to challenge your indulgence in chucking around the 'd' word at anyone who disagrees with you. Good luck with that.

So if people think for themselves its means they arent in reality and are delusional?!

rohanda

Go on, try us!

erm no, what I said was pretending that faith is based on anything other than emotion is delusional, would you prefer the term disingenuous?

Hey, if you can prove me wrong, go for it!

I find this argument really bizarre. In my experience, genuinely spiritual people have no interest in talking about creationism because it is irrelevant to their faith.

Many people have had supernatural experiences and their faith is based on that. Obviously if you have had such experiences, trying to make up some strange explanation of the earth becomes 5,000 years old is an utter triviality.

I think it is somewhat irrelevant whether or not these supernatural experiences are based on having a lot of imagination or real supernatural entities. What is relevant is that people go out and have personal experiences of the supernatural.

People who go on about creationism to convince themselves there is a god are like teenagers who try to tell you about sex because they once kissed the back of their hand but have never had a boyfriend.

I dont actually think anyone on here who said they beleive in God/a higher power has even said they are creationists?

Then why are we discussing it? Evolution is an entirely separate concept to atheism. I think it is a borrowed US trend. There are lots of discussions from US people, and articles, about how they are going to show atheists why they they are wrong by disproving evolution. Most atheists have no particular interest in evolution.

I dont know. But there are a small minority of people who have to learn that a belief in a higher power does not automotically equate to a creationist who has an inabilty to grasp science. It's not that black and white.