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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to teach my kids that som

85 replies

Niceguy2 · 14/03/2011 20:52

Having just watched this on YouTube I am wondering if AIBU to teach my kids how to punch/kick & generally defend themselves properly?

I mean ok...officially they should tell the teacher's but let's be honest, would you have done as a child?

I was bullied as a kid by quite a few people as I was the only immigrant child in the school so an obvious target. Thinking back, it was only after I learned Karate and started fighting back (only after being provoked a lot) that it stopped.

So whilst its all well and good having anti-bullying policies and officially letting the teachers deal with bullies, AIBU to think the best way to ensure my kids don't get bullied is to make sure they know how to fight so potential bullies think twice first?

OP posts:
SlainteBooyFeckingHoo · 14/03/2011 23:32

my friend is a support worker with adults with learning difficulties. he has been attacked dozens of times and as a result has taught his daughters how to defend themselves when faced with a physical assault from someone much bigger. i think self defence is a far better thing to teach than just teaching them to kick or punch out. i think people panic when faced with a fight or flight situation and punching out is a bit hit and miss. just having the knowledge that you can defend yourself puts you in a far better position because you trust how you will respond in such a situation. you will think more rationally if you have a fair idea of how you are going to react.

Morloth · 14/03/2011 23:49

I was given the same advice as SecretNutellaFix, never start anything but finish it if you need to.

DS1 does karate and knows that if I ever catch him bullying he will be in shit so deep he will need a shovel, but he also knows that if he does need to hit back he has our support, there is no fucking way I am going to turn him out into the world unprepared to defend himself.

It hasn't come up so far, and I suspect that is because bullies can sense an easy target and steer clear of the kids who will punch them back.

I remember watching a documentary once on bullying before I had kids and they had a camera on the playground, it was like watching a wolfpack split out the weakest member of the herd and go for the kill.

cory · 15/03/2011 07:57

I tried fighting back and it was a disaster. Because the bullies hit harder than me.

What dcs have had drilled into them at school instead is that every child has a duty to get an adult if anyone is being hurt or frightened. This seems excellent advice to me. But it does of course presuppose that the adults have a sensible policy in dealing with bullying strictly and firmly.

When ds was being attacked at school he didn't have a chance to defend himself, being much smaller and weaker than his aggressor, but because of the school's anti-bullying policy someone would always look out for him and get help. This worked well and seems to me a sensible preparation for adult life.

Shodan · 15/03/2011 08:15

The thing with karate particularly is that it doesn't just teach you to punch and kick- or at least, it shouldn't, if you have a good instructor. It teaches you how to deflect an attack, how to judge a potential situation so you can remove yourself before it becomes bad enough to warrant physical action, how to restrain someone without pain or injury. It also gives children (and adults) confidence and also a social group outside school, which can be extremely important for a child who is bullied and possibly friendless in school. It also teaches discipline and respect.

I do think that it should be included in the curriculum - not to encourage people to lash out or be violent, but to teach children about respect for each other, physically and mentally.

Wrt the original question- I was taught, and have taught ds1 and will teach ds2, the same as SecretNutellaFix and Morloth- never start anything but always finish it. I believe teaching them karate will teach them to 'finish it' more effectively (ie without unnecessary force or violence).

FourFortyFour · 15/03/2011 08:17

DH and I were both bullied at school physically and verbally. It only stopped when we slapped them back.

DS1 has been bullied a lot at school and we have now told the school that we will tell our son to smack back if the school don't deal with it and stop it.

seeker · 15/03/2011 09:04

It is stupid and irresponsible to tell children that if they hit back, bullying will stop. It is possible that it might. It is also possible that it will make it worse. There is a popular myth that bullies are cowards. They are not - and they often have a lot of people on their side.

It is also stupid and irresponsible to expect children to be able to jusdge when it is appropriate to hit back, and how hard. Does a jostle or a push warrant a kick in return? If so where? Knee? Stomach? Face?

Some of the worst bullying is verbal. Does that warrant a punch or a kick?

"Don;t start it - but if someone else does, finish it" Yeah, right. What is this, an episode of The High Chapperal? What if there are two of them? what if you can't?

A lot if this is, to be honest, parental fantasy "My lad's handy with his fists" "Nobody has a go at my boy - well, someone tried it once..." "My kid knows how to look after himself"

thx1138 · 15/03/2011 09:19

So what's your advice Seeker?

meditrina · 15/03/2011 09:28

My DCs have all done martial arts - a good, properly set up junior programme. It instills confidence, both mental and physical, and includes context for how to defend yourself. It taught how to block kicks and punches, and that you must never throw the first punch.

Self defence is the important part for such scenarios - someone with confidence, who cannot easily be hit or kicked hard, and who is known to be good at a martial art, is much less likely to be a victim of physical bullying.

MillyR · 15/03/2011 09:35

I don't think it is about stopping bullying. It is about getting out of a situation in which you could be seriously injured. If you can just run away or inform a teacher, fine. But if, as happened to DS, someone is kicking you repeatedly in the head, you could die. In that situation I am very happy that he hit the other boy and pushed him over in order to get away. Because even if the other boy is injured, I'd rather DS was expelled than dead or in hospital with brain damage.

It is a lesson for adult life. I would rather DS went to prison than ended up dead or in hospital with brain damage.

As it happens, nobody ever hit DS again after that, but it is rather irrelevant and certainly not the main point of hitting someone.

Morloth · 15/03/2011 09:45

Yes lovely seeker the world maybe should work a certain way but it doesn't. The strong survive. They always have and they always will. I will do everything to ensure that my DSs are one of the strong.

They are going to beat the shit out of you anyway, so you might as well hurt them back a little.

My kids might get in trouble with the school if they hit back, but they will not be in trouble with us.

I am all for, 'tell an adult' and all the rest of it, but my memories of the playground are of a barely controlled jungle. No way in hell am I sending my kids into that unprepared.

The strong survive, it might not be the way it should be, but it is the way it is.

seeker · 15/03/2011 09:52

Just hope yours are strong ones, then - but it might be worth thinking avotu what you would do if they aren't.

I repeat. Hitting back doesn't make it go away and cam make it worse.

But you carry on with your Rambo fantasies - I hope when you look back in 10 years time it turns out that you were right.

Morloth · 15/03/2011 09:55

Worked for me. I was the fat kid.

The world won't change for them. As much as I want their lives to be safe and gentle and for everyone to be kind to them, it isn't going to happen. Look around at how the world works.

I hope they are strong as well, because if they are not then school is going to be the least of their problems because it doesn't get any better in the real world.

MillyR · 15/03/2011 09:55

Hitting someone is more likely to make them go away than just standing there doing nothing while they hit you.

HecateTheCrone · 15/03/2011 10:01

After having been bullied so badly through my whole school life that I eventually tried to kill myself, I shall not be teaching my children to accept it or that hitting back is wrong.

I shall be teaching them that if someone corners them and they can't get away - they break their fucking nose.

My children will not be the victim that I was. Nobody has the right to do that to them and I refuse to brainwash them into thinking that others have the right to treat them like shit.

slightlymad72 · 15/03/2011 10:07

My DS has been bullied for 8 years, his entire school life, we have followed the 'proper' route, meetings with the teachers, meetings with the head teachers. Nothing was done about it, he carried on coming home with damaged clothing, twisted glasses, bruises, skin removed. I always told him he should find a teacher and inform them, but he was always prevented by the school yard staff, he was encouraged to lie (by one teacher) inorder to gain access to school and escape from the bullies. I also told him to avoid the bullies as best he can, keep his head down. But why should my son stay out of the way and not enjoy playing with his friends when the bullies can do what they want, because the school refuses to act.
He now goes to karate, he's not a natural, but it is giving him confidence and he is learning how to defend himself. We have also told him now, if he is threatened and attacked he can fight back. He is a lot happier, knowing that the next time someone decides to smash his head against the floor he doesn't have to just lie there and take it.

seeker · 15/03/2011 10:11

I'm not saying hitting back is wrong. I'm saying it doesn't work.

Nobody is saying stand there and be a punchbag. Of course if you can fight your way out of an extreme situation.

But it will not make the situation better, and you will be lying to your children if you tell them it will

Morloth · 15/03/2011 10:23

My anecdata says it does work.

If you run you might as well paint a great big target on your back that says 'Kick Me'.

The kids in that video are at a school that my old school is now part of, law of the jungle reigned then and it clearly reigns now.

It might not make the situation better but it will make the situation different. You won't have run, you won't have dobbed, they will have to think next time when they are looking for an easy target because maybe you are not such an easy one after all.

Look around seeker and tell me that the strong fighters (not necessarily physical, but willing to stand up for themselves) don't run the world.

Desperateforthinnerthighs · 15/03/2011 10:28

My DS does kung fu and has been for almost 3 years....his confidence has grown and he can defend himself if need be...he is 8!!! Obv they are not supposed to use their skills out of the studio but of course if they are in a situation where they need to use it thats fine!!!

DS was being bullied at school a few years ago and he would never hit back.....we told him to kick this kid in the balls but he wouldnt as he would have got told off! Now, he will hit back if he needs to but he would never throw the first punch.

I cant recommend Kung Fu enough for girls or boys - it is so much more than just the physical aspect too - the discipline/respect is good as well

HecateTheCrone · 15/03/2011 10:30

I agree with you, Morloth.

If you are a doormat, people WILL wipe their feet on you.

And they will do it over and over and over again. And others will see them do it and they will come over to wipe THEIR feet on you over and over and over again.

Because you will have been identified as someone who will bend over and take it right up the jacksie.

And they won't stop.

Until you make them stop.

If you let yourself be a victim, that's all you'll ever be and in the end it will destroy you.

And I really REALLY wish that I didn't know that from personal experience.

FourFortyFour · 15/03/2011 10:35

I am neither stupid or irresponsible, seeker.

FourFortyFour · 15/03/2011 10:41

"But it will not make the situation better, and you will be lying to your children if you tell them it will."

Seeker you can't make such a blanket statement like that as you do not know of every experience in the world. Sometimes it will be made better.

seeker · 15/03/2011 10:54

OK, I will rephrase. It is very unlikely to make the situation better, and you will be lying to your children if you tell them it will.

Morloth · 15/03/2011 10:59

So seeker what would you have had the big kid in the link do? The bullying has been going on for years, he was punched 7 times while being filmed (presumably so the little bastards could laugh at him some more online) before he snapped.

What do you want him to do? Years of it seeker and not fighting back didn't change anything. Smacking the little shit down sure did though didn't it? The bully's minder was faced down by a girl at the end, you really think if he was sure he could still beat on the bullied kid he would have stopped there?

Morloth · 15/03/2011 11:00

Italics went a bit mad there, I haven't adjusted to the new stuff.

GooseyLoosey · 15/03/2011 11:15

I agree that bullied children should feel empowered to fight back. However, Seeker has a point. Ds has been bullied often and on the occassions when he has fought back, it has had mixed results. With one lot of bullies, that was the end of it. However, with another lot, they just came with reinforcements the next time.

If you do choose to go down the route of telling your children to fight back, you need to consider your strategies if this does not work - what are you going to tell your dcs to do if it makes it worse?

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