To think breast fed babies are more intellegent

[thecatamongthepidgeons]

Because their parents tend to be more intellegent not because they were breast fed?
More intellegent parents are more likely to choose to breast feed regardless of any dificulties they face if they think it will benefit their children.

Most cases of gastroenteritis are viral. I say this as the partner of a paediatric consultant. I suppose he has a bit of an idea what he's talking about. Yes promote breastfeeding all you like but the scaremongering is uneccessary.

Well what do you want us to say foofy if you don't want us to lie? I'm curious because I don't think there is any way to tell the truth without offending someone!

What should we do FoofffyShmoofffer stop talking about it? How do you suggest we discuss it? Should we nod and agree that in fact MilaMae is making good points in terms of the 'triviality' of breastfeeding?? Don't you think describing it as 'trivial' deserves a challenge????

'Collateral damage'

Gemsy - that may be the case. Do you think bm can't protect against viral illnesses?

If I'd followed your advice and given up with my first both my daughter and I would have missed out on 18 months of breastfeeding. The answer to serious problems with breastfeeding doesn't always (or usually) have to be 'stop breastfeeding' any more than problems with your legs should receive the immediate response of 'stop walking', particularly if this advice is handed out without any sort of expert medical assessment or treatment.

Spudulika - you are being selective. What I said was:

Intelligence is when you take all advice and suggestions thrown your way and should you still have a hungry, unhappy baby then stop.

After all avenues have been exhausted know when enough is enough.

Gemsy exclusively breastfeeding protects against viruses. Or at least prevents dehydration and hospitalisation.

It can but doesnt always, I think if people have this attitude that BF prevents all illness they may be setting themselves up for a major guilt trip when their kids develop the same bugs as ff kids do!

Gemsy no one is saying it guarantees that your child won't get sick. It just reduces the risk.

Or rather ff increases the risk seeing as bf is the biological norm :)

"...and then target your efforts (less hysterically) to those people. alternatively you can shriek and yell and overstate things that absolutely cannot be proven and alienate yourselves..."

Seriously - where is all this hysteria, shrieking and yelling you speak of? I don't see it from the pro-breastfeeding side of this thread, I really don't. I see a lot of swearing and personal abuse from the other side, though...

Sometimes I don't think there will ever be any acceptable way of talking about breastfeeding for some people. Even just the mere mention of it is enough to send some people in a tailspin, which effectively means any discussion of the topic is silenced, which isn't right.

Spud also makes a good point about the widespread uptake of formula-feeding being such a radical change in the way we feed infants in their first months of life.

I mean, evolutionarily-speaking, I'd say we're quite a way off from seeing exactly what the long-term effects actually are.

Gemsy I'm not sure that is true. Being able to breastfeed your child on demand when they are sick and protect them and nurture them and comfort them in such a close way is one of the best features of breastfeeding. Why would it cause a guilt trip. Babies get ill. Breastfeeding is more effective at comforting and nourishing them that formula feeding. I am not even sure they are allowed formula when they are very ill are they?

It's escalated to the point of ridiculousness.

On the one side we have breast cancer and dying babies. (unprecedented hysteria)

On the other we have Formula is just as good or even Formula is better (no it isn't, that's just insanity)

What I suggest since you asked is to bring this back to rational, adult debate and less hysterical point scoring on both sides.

Good post 5DollarShake, particularly the last line.

So FoofffyShmoofffer would you say Jack Newman was being hysterical?

Yes the dying babies - is that all you have to grasp hold of given that it has been well established that the picture was insensitive, thoughtless and generally not entirely relevant. In 30 odd pages...

Regarding admissions to hospital with gastroenteritis - it seems logical to say that the vast majority of cases of gastroenteritis in formula fed babies are going to be due to poor hygiene either in the preparation, storing and feeding of the formula.

Ruby - I believe that describing any activity as 'risky' implies that there is quite a big risk involved - that there are likely to be a lot of accidents/bad outcomes involved - and I just do not think that that is the case with formula feeding. If there was a significant risk that a majority or a very big minority of formula fed babies suffering as a consequence (which is what 'ffing being risky' says very clearly to me), then the formula companies would not be allowed to sell their product.

For this reason, I believe that formula feeding is not just safe for 'lots' of babies, as you say, but for the vast majority of formula fed babies. You say that some, maybe quite a few are not so lucky, but do not put a figure on that - so it looks like you are guessing here.

some figures

quite a few studies done of risks of artificial feeding - it was the link on the right of the page posted above

I wait with bated breath for someone to tell me it is all bollocks .

Diane Weissinger on language that is being used in this thread that people are getting upset about

"Regarding admissions to hospital with gastroenteritis - it seems logical to say that the vast majority of cases of gastroenteritis in formula fed babies are going to be due to poor hygiene either in the preparation, storing and feeding of the formula"

Yes - you are right. And the high iron levels in formula also create conditions in the gut which make gastric illness more likely.

Babies are especially vulnerable to gastric illness, which is why breastmilk is such a good food for them - because of its antiviral and antibacterial qualities, none of which formula has.

But pointing out that the delivery method for formula the MAIN problem doesn't help much because parents who use formula are stuck with using bottles. When you're exhausted, you have a baby who's feeding little and often, you have other children to care for and a busy life, it's easy to see how mistakes get made with preparation.

On a personal note, I was so anxious about cleanliness and doing things right with my first (who I mixed fed while I was struggling with breastfeeding) I gave myself quite bad dermatitis from endless hand washing - worrying about keeping bottles and surfaces clean. Still got it 12 years later.

So it's a bit 'pat' to just say 'as long as you keep the bottles clean and don't leave formula sitting around you won't have a problem.' The delivery system with formula is vulnerable to mistakes being made - it goes with the territory of bottlefeeding.

"I think if people have this attitude that BF prevents all illness"

I don't think anyone thinks this.

StayingDavid - re poor preparation I'm not sure that would necessarily be the case in developed countries. It would be interesting to see figures. I would think more to do with ff not being able to protect against these things wrt antibodies or even in relation to gut flora etc.....

"Most cases of gastroenteritis are viral."

True.

And breastfeeding confers some protection against this.

The figures from the Dundee study that most of the DOH guidelines on infant feeding are based on are:

"gastrointestinal illness was 2.9% among fully breastfed and 5.1% among partially breastfed infants compared with 15.7% among bottle-fed infants"

Would also like to point out the the DOH 5 year survey into feeding practices (Infant Feeding Survey - involves 9000 mothers I think)

found:

Of artificially feeding mothers, 69% prepared several feeds at a time and
stored them.
? Just under half of all mothers who had prepared powdered infant
formula in the last seven days, had not followed key recommendations
for preparing formula; either by not always using boiled water that had
been cooled for less than 30 minutes, or not always using water to the
bottle before the powder.
? Approximately one third did not follow infant formula preparation
recommendations when away from home (i.e. they did not keep preprepared formula chilled or used cold or cooled water when preparing
the feed).
? Only 13% of all mothers followed all three recommendations of only
making one feed at a time, making feeds within 30 minutes of the water
boiling, and adding the water to the bottle before the powder."

Bubbleymummy - in order for any child to get gastroenteritis, they have to ingest the causative bacteria or virus (it is caused by a wide variety of viruses and bacteria). For this to happen to a non-mobile baby, the bacteria or virus has to be present on something put in their mouths or in their food - ie someone caring for them has to contaminate the bottle/dummy/teething ring etc.

If formula is not prepared properly, the warm milk is an excellent breeding ground for bacteria/viruses.

Spudulika - the reason for the change to the guidelines on how formula should be prepared - specifically using water above 70 degrees, and only making up one feed at a time, was in response to a very small number of cases of infection with one pathogen - enterobacter sakazakii, which has caused a small number of fatalities in high risk infants (premature, low birthweight or immunocompromised).

Prior to this change, the advice was to make up batches of feeds and store them in the fridge for no more than 24 hours - which is the advice I followed with all three dses, and they never once got gastroenteritis.

And the government advice does not totally rule out preparing feeds in advance - it says that sometimes feeds have to be pre-prepared, for example if the baby is going to nursery or the family are going out, and there are guidelines given for the safe preparation and storeage of feeds in this situation (if using the cartons of readymade formula isn't a possibility). The most important of these is using hot enough water to make up the feed, in order to kill as many as possible of the pathogens that might be present. It states that the temperature of the fridge must not rise above -5 degrees, and should be checked regularly, and that feeds should not be stored for more than 24 hours - basically the guidance that I followed with all three of mine.

Rollitt - Was there a study done to show there is no prevention of osteoporosis? Genuinely curious because I've heard that benefit mentioned a lot.

In answer to your question OP ....

What a sad, dull life you must have to want to start this old, tired and frankly boring fight again!

Why don't you pop out for a walk instead! YAWN!

Jack Newman hysterical - nope

You hysterical for bringing it to a debate about whether BF makes more intelligent babies - yes

Yes the dying babies - is that all you have to grasp hold of given that it has been well established that the picture was insensitive, thoughtless and generally not entirely relevant. In 30 odd pages

You linked to it

as part of a debate about whether BF makes for more intelligent babies. So