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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if Jeffrey Epstein really is a paedophile

167 replies

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:11

I have name changed for this because it's such an emotive subject, and folk are likely to be flamey (quite rightly too). And I am a wimp.

You'll have all seen in the news reference to Prince Andrew's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, almost universally described as 'the billionaire paedophile'.

When I read the newspaper reports I discovered that he had been convicted of procuring underage girls for sex, some of whom I understand (owing to US consent laws) were 17. Some, of course, were considerably younger: I understand the youngest to have been 14.

AIBU to think that this is not 'paedophilia'? That suggests to me an utterly unnatural, in fact downright evil, sexual preference. Finding post-pubescent girls and young women, who are presenting as adults in the physical essentials, seems to me to be a different matter.

I found myself becoming quite angry. Not because I felt sorry for Epstein (undoubtedly as immoral, sleazy, predatory and abusive a man as you could hope to find, and he well deserves his jail term and worse), but because labelling him a paedophile somehow detracts from quite how appalling, and how absolutely against every fibre of a normal person's nature, paedophilia is.

The article I saw was illustrated by a picture of Epstein with his arm around one of his 'child victims'. She was 17, nearly as tall as him, and very definitely a woman, not a child.

Just to reiterate (in case it gets lost in debate!) I am not saying tht what he did was right. On the contrary I would very much like the opportunity to kick his bollocks off. But I suppose what I think is: a sleazy old man fancying and preying on teenage girls is a revolting controlling abusive prick, but not a paedophile.

There. AIBU? I would genuinely like to know & don't know where else to raise the debate.

OP posts:
ongakgak · 08/03/2011 17:28

squeaky toy the salient point in my post was that it waS WITH PEERS not with mush older males.

colditz · 08/03/2011 17:29

"Having sex with girls aged 14 and 15 is child abuse and rape - truly disgusting acts which we would all be appalled by"

No.

Sorry, I don't agree.

It may be disgusting and appalling for middle aged men to do this, but I do not agree that it is disgusting and appalling for anyone (ie their male peers) to do this.

I lost my own virginity at 14, to a 17 year old, and was frankly glad to see the back of it. It was fun. I was not abused, I was not coerced, i was not even talked into it. It just happened naturally.

Did I participate in a disgusting and appalling act? No. I didn't think so at the time and I don't think so now.

teenagers are not toddlers. teenagers are real people, capable of making choices about their own bodies, and countries who have 'The Romeo and Juliet' laws (those which allow sex for minors within 2 - 5 years of each other's age) allow for this autonomy.

What this pervert did was allegedly rape a minor. That doesn't mean that this minor is not capable of making a choice, it simply means that she had chosen not to and was raped anyway.

ongakgak · 08/03/2011 17:29

much fgs!

fortyplus · 08/03/2011 17:34

I remember once hearing the argument that the age of consent is 16 for a reason - and that's because most people are not mature enough to have sex until that age.

Those individuals who feel an urge to have sex earlier should display the necessary maturity and self control to wait till 16 to protect the interests of the majority.

colditz · 08/03/2011 17:38

"Those individuals who feel an urge to have sex earlier should display the necessary maturity and self control to wait till 16 to protect the interests of the majority."

I was far too busy with my own sex life to concern myself with anyone else's.

ongakgak · 08/03/2011 17:41

colditz I take your point and I would agree and what is happening there, with my youth and in yours and in many of our sons and daughters is that they are sexually active with their peers

Also, I am sorry, but I am not getting this last point you made- What this pervert did was allegedly rape a minor. That doesn't mean that this minor is not capable of making a choice, it simply means that she had chosen not to and was raped anyway.

So she did or did not have a choice in your opinion in this situation? Confused

colditz · 08/03/2011 18:15

I don't know, I haven't read much about it and I don't sling anything across the internet unless I'm sure about it because of what happened with She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named..

ongakgak · 08/03/2011 18:57

eh? have you been on the Wine?

I just got it.

Allegedly and all that jazz.

Mymblesson · 08/03/2011 19:09

The original term used for men attracted to pubescent teens was ephebophilia, I think, to distinguish it from attraction to pre-pubescent children.

Not that it's really important. The bastard deserves to hang by his bollocks.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 08/03/2011 19:24

Its semantics isnt it?

Apples and oranges?

To have sex with any child is abbhorant (although I take the point about 14 year olds having sex with 15 year olds not being the same thing).

It is all abuse even if the 14 year old is a 38FF and has been in the business for years. It will affect her. It may affect her in a very different way from a raped 3 year old but neither is better or worse, just different.

Gary Glitter IS a peadophile. He also had a lot of 'barely legal' girlfriends. What he felt able to do in public IMO was significant considering what he did behind closed doors. He couldnt parade his illegal sexual leanings but he could make do with the next best thing.

I have seen discussions like this on another forum and been utterly sickened at the seemingly majority opinion that 'the girls know what the are doing'. It makes me so angry that women can think this let alone state it on a public forum.

The man is an abbhoration. He is a rich one though so is able to settle out of court. This has the affect of making his victims look like goldiggers and getting him off the hook at the same time.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 19:36

a) It's not semantics.
b) Semantics are really, really important.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 19:36

Actually on second thoughts is IS partly semantics, but see point b.

QuickLookBusy · 08/03/2011 19:52

Some girls can start their periods at 9 or 10 years old. They are able to have a baby, they have developed, does that mean its ok for a man to be sexually attracted to her?

ongakgak · 08/03/2011 19:52

thecoalition- you are making me crossed eyed!

thefirstMrsDeVere · 08/03/2011 20:06

Dont understand what you coalition sorry Smile.

I do think this is a very important issue, very imporant. I think its more important than getting the exact word for the exact act. The differences are not so great that to confuse the words would cause a great injustice. IYSWIM.

chandellina · 08/03/2011 20:30

he invited young girls to his house to give him sexual massages in exchange for gifts and money, and enlisted some of them to recruit additional girls.

He claimed he didn't know how old they were, and some of them admitted to having lied about their ages, though one of his "helpers" alleged he had asked for girls the younger the better.

fortyplus · 08/03/2011 21:49

colditz - I'm pretty sure most would feel the same! I've never taken much of an interest in anyone else's sex life, either! But having said that - in my youth most people I knew were waiting till at least 16 anyway, mostly because the pill wasn't available till after that age. Reliable contraception and no fear of HIV at that time.

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