Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if Jeffrey Epstein really is a paedophile

167 replies

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:11

I have name changed for this because it's such an emotive subject, and folk are likely to be flamey (quite rightly too). And I am a wimp.

You'll have all seen in the news reference to Prince Andrew's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, almost universally described as 'the billionaire paedophile'.

When I read the newspaper reports I discovered that he had been convicted of procuring underage girls for sex, some of whom I understand (owing to US consent laws) were 17. Some, of course, were considerably younger: I understand the youngest to have been 14.

AIBU to think that this is not 'paedophilia'? That suggests to me an utterly unnatural, in fact downright evil, sexual preference. Finding post-pubescent girls and young women, who are presenting as adults in the physical essentials, seems to me to be a different matter.

I found myself becoming quite angry. Not because I felt sorry for Epstein (undoubtedly as immoral, sleazy, predatory and abusive a man as you could hope to find, and he well deserves his jail term and worse), but because labelling him a paedophile somehow detracts from quite how appalling, and how absolutely against every fibre of a normal person's nature, paedophilia is.

The article I saw was illustrated by a picture of Epstein with his arm around one of his 'child victims'. She was 17, nearly as tall as him, and very definitely a woman, not a child.

Just to reiterate (in case it gets lost in debate!) I am not saying tht what he did was right. On the contrary I would very much like the opportunity to kick his bollocks off. But I suppose what I think is: a sleazy old man fancying and preying on teenage girls is a revolting controlling abusive prick, but not a paedophile.

There. AIBU? I would genuinely like to know & don't know where else to raise the debate.

OP posts:
GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 14:48

Again bemy, I am not going to answer that because you are inviting me to condone abusive behaviour, which I think is irresponsible and unfair. The list of ages you have provided all make me feel desperately uncomfortable - even the phrase 'curvy 11 yo' revolts me because an 11 year old is a child and the term 'curvy' is sexually loaded.

I appreciate that you disagree, and indeed (as I have repeatedly tried to explain) I understand why you disagree, and am challenged by all the responses provided. But I am slightly taken aback by that post.

OP posts:
ongakgak · 08/03/2011 14:52

bemy I am not sure why you are giving the OP a biscuit like that. If you read her posts she has made it pretty clear she thinks what he has done is terrible and has raised some points for discussion. I think you are being unnecessarily mean.

quelle I think we are on the same page here.

nancy I did not know about this "ring" can you link or tell us more please. I feel sick that parents took a pay off.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 14:54

Thanks again ong - and yes Nancy, would be interested (if appalled) to read more: it's genuinely terrifying how far depravity spreads, and how far money goes Sad. Talk about "the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."

The whole thing is unspeakably depressing, whatever stance you take.

OP posts:
GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 14:57

(Incidentally if I vanish for a bit it's because they're doing something to the interweb servers at work, not because I've bolted!)

OP posts:
bemybebe · 08/03/2011 15:07

ongakgak the biscuit is as I understand a "no comment" to the statement by op that sexual abuse of 3 and 15 year old somehow of different magnitude. to me this warrants "no comment". op earlier stated that she herself may be a product of the child sexualization culture. i think i agree as this is the only explanation why this distinction between the ages may exist.

i hope the biscuit is not taken as offence Blush, i apologize if it is. (i am a new here and maybe not very switched into mn etiquette)

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 15:10

Yes it is sort of taken as VERY offensive bemy, as in: "your post is so rude, ignorant and insulting I cannot bring myself to respond"! I feel less baffled/hurt now :)

OP posts:
bemybebe · 08/03/2011 15:10

in any case, i am off for now... thank you GQ for this thread it was interesting and educational for me (but the weather is great and i promised my hubby to prune the roses this afternoon...)

bemybebe · 08/03/2011 15:12

aha!!! in this case i apologize profusely and thanks for explanation (makes mental note to go and read whatever guidelines there are published on MN etiquette) Smile

Mumwithadragontattoo · 08/03/2011 15:12

GQ - I agree with you. Having sex with girls aged 14 and 15 is child abuse and rape - truly disgusting acts which we would all be appalled by. But it is not paedophilia. If my DH saw a picture of a 16 year old and said he found her sexually attractive I would be a bit "yuck" but not appalled. If he said the same about a six year old I would be revolted and we would be history.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 15:12

I am very jealous that you get to go outside. Thanks for everything bemy, I honestly did find it enlightening to talk to you (all).

OP posts:
GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 15:13

Mumwith that's sort of the benchmark I used, really (ie, how would I feel about my husband/a close friend responding in those two ways).

Again, this is because I have been looking at it from the perspective of 'how bad is the thought/deed', and not 'how bad is the damage done'.

OP posts:
ongakgak · 08/03/2011 15:17

bemy sorry if you thought I was being rough!

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 15:21

OngGak - i don't think it's just semantics - they really are different things. I don't think is is JUST the fetishization of youth that makes one seem less bad than the other in popular perception - it's also the distance from social norms - sex with girls who look more like adult women seems closer to normal behavior than with ones who are clearly not adult.

Doesn't change the behaviour - does change popular perceptions of it.

QuickLookBusy · 08/03/2011 15:22

Well having 2 teenage DDS I would say any man in his 40's who wants to have sex with a 17 year old is more than a "bit yuk". The girls may be physically developed but many of them are extremely immature at 17. Any man who wants to have sex with a girl that age is totally and utterly taking advantage of her.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/03/2011 15:23

but the pre/post pubescent thing IS important - once the body has gone through puberty it is ready/designed to have/make children.

Children (in the legal sense) have sex all the time, and it is not rape or paedophilia if both parties are children.or is it?

The point is that this guy is attracted to young woman who have all the attributes to bear children, not to undeveloped children. So yes there is a difference. Not necessarily different grades of how bad, but there is a real difference.

And I think most people (myself included) would rightly or wrongly find the rape of a 2 year old more abhorrent thanthe rape of a 15 year old.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 15:26

QuelleLeJeff - I'm not suggesting that is how it SHOULD be described, but showing how it could be to minimise how people perceive it to be - just as using the word paedophile makes it appear worse in popular perception.

LillianGish · 08/03/2011 15:29

Slightly off the point, but how old are Prince Andrew's girls? Can't help wondering how he'd feel if Epstein had been taking an interest in them.

ongakgak · 08/03/2011 15:30

thecoalition said- i don't think it's just semantics - they really are different things. I don't think is is JUST the fetishization of youth that makes one seem less bad than the other in popular perception - it's also the distance from social norms - sex with girls who look more like adult women seems closer to normal behavior than with ones who are clearly not adult

Yes it might be closer to normal behaviours, but it is not and should not be considered normal behaviour I think is what I am trying to say. Just because she looks like a woman and fucks like a woman, doesn't make her a woman. That is really crass and I will apologise right now if my language offends.

I don't think abuse of children should be on a sliding scale. I might be wrong, I don't think I am though, am I? Confused

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 15:35

No, it's not and it shouldn't be - but I'm talking her really about the 'yuk response' - it's not a guide to how we should treat this behaviour but it is one of the reasons why we respond differently to it.

LeninGrad · 08/03/2011 15:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QuelleLeJeff · 08/03/2011 15:37

I don't think so ongakgak. Confused

QuelleLeJeff · 08/03/2011 15:41

The thing is TheCoalition, you are not listening to those of us who are saying YUK to both the rape of pre pubescent children AND the rape of post pubescent children in equal measure. There are quite a number of us on this thread, and quite a number - I am sure, in the wider world as well; and I'm starting to find it quite frustrating. On this thread I have been told that I don't feel like that and that others don't feel like that; and I can tell you for a fact, that most of the people I know would find the rape of a 3 year old and the rape of a 14 year old to be equally abhorrent. Not sure why you don't believe that that is the case.

ongakgak · 08/03/2011 15:51

thecoalition sorry are you saying that the papers are not reporting the case factually and are bandying the word paedo about to make us gasp and read more more more?

I am not following you, and I am not sure what your position is on this case, not that you have to decalre your position to me in any way, I am just getting a bit muddled.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 15:52

Quelle I apologise for having doubted your view - I ought not to have done so. It's simply that I find it so incomprehensible I struggle to understand it. Clearly that doesn't mean it is impossible for others to think so. Apologies again.

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 15:54

QuelleLeJeff - But me, you and everyone we know are not most people.

For inatance:-

www.womensviewsonnews.org/wvon/2010/11/study-reveals-shocking-attitudes-to-rape

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8515592.stm

For many people what this bloke did (from what I can glean from Wikipedia) wouldn't even constitute rape.

Swipe left for the next trending thread