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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if Jeffrey Epstein really is a paedophile

167 replies

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:11

I have name changed for this because it's such an emotive subject, and folk are likely to be flamey (quite rightly too). And I am a wimp.

You'll have all seen in the news reference to Prince Andrew's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, almost universally described as 'the billionaire paedophile'.

When I read the newspaper reports I discovered that he had been convicted of procuring underage girls for sex, some of whom I understand (owing to US consent laws) were 17. Some, of course, were considerably younger: I understand the youngest to have been 14.

AIBU to think that this is not 'paedophilia'? That suggests to me an utterly unnatural, in fact downright evil, sexual preference. Finding post-pubescent girls and young women, who are presenting as adults in the physical essentials, seems to me to be a different matter.

I found myself becoming quite angry. Not because I felt sorry for Epstein (undoubtedly as immoral, sleazy, predatory and abusive a man as you could hope to find, and he well deserves his jail term and worse), but because labelling him a paedophile somehow detracts from quite how appalling, and how absolutely against every fibre of a normal person's nature, paedophilia is.

The article I saw was illustrated by a picture of Epstein with his arm around one of his 'child victims'. She was 17, nearly as tall as him, and very definitely a woman, not a child.

Just to reiterate (in case it gets lost in debate!) I am not saying tht what he did was right. On the contrary I would very much like the opportunity to kick his bollocks off. But I suppose what I think is: a sleazy old man fancying and preying on teenage girls is a revolting controlling abusive prick, but not a paedophile.

There. AIBU? I would genuinely like to know & don't know where else to raise the debate.

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 08/03/2011 13:31

I tend to agree with the OP that a different term might be appropriate for this type of child abuse.

There are several countries in Europe where the age of consent is 14 - in Spain 13. Italy has some interesting distinctions which demonstrate an attempt to tackle the complexities:

The age of consent in Italy is 14 years, with a close-in-age exception that allows those aged 13 to engage in sexual activity with partners who are less than 3 years older. The age of consent rises to 16 if one of the participants has some kind of influence on the other (e.g. teacher, tutor, adoptive parent).

schroeder · 08/03/2011 13:31

Of course you are right, there is nothing I have heard of or read in this case to suggest he is a paedophile.

Not so say he hasn't behaved in an abhorent criminal manner.

Using the correct word is important, not just the most emotive one.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:31

How is this trolling?! Confused I'm not being abusive or angry am I?

Coalition is describing it better than me.

"Twisted pervert" also about sums it up.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 13:31

mummery - Describing something accuratly doesn't have to change how you treat it.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:33

Thanks Springbok

I'm so, sorry about your relation Val. It leads me on to point out that Epstein is, by law and by fact, a rapist - so it is not as if in not calling him a paedophile it's dodging the fact that he is a violent sexual offender.

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Jacksmania · 08/03/2011 13:34

Very good points being raised here.
On reading the opening post, I found myself agreeing with GenuineQuery. A few posts later I found myself agreeing with the other posters.
This is genuinely educational and I, for one, am glad you posted, GQ.

Jacksmania · 08/03/2011 13:35

Sorry about the wishy-washy post btw, I'm really not AIBU material (not hardy enough) but marking place because I expect I'll learn a lot from this thread.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:37

Thanks Jacks. I posted because I wanted to educate myself, IYSWIM. I'm not looking for a fight!

It is very interesting to consider the age of consent laws. Thanks for looking it up Grimma. I flinched from the Spanish age of consent being so low but it's interesting how the legislation protects against large age gaps and predatory older men.

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EricNorthmansMistress · 08/03/2011 13:37

The victim status is no different whether it is a 9 year old or a 14 year old child. The damage done is no different. The ability to heal and move on is no different. The only thing that is different is that the predilection is for very young teens rather than pre pubescent children. Very young teens are still children and it is still abusive and perverted for older people to sexually exploit very young teens, even if they have mature sexual organs.

I'm afraid I don't see a hierarchy of abusiveness here, being a couple of years older at 14 when you are sexually abused doesn't make it any easier than being 9, nor does having a post pubescent body. This man and others like him still have a sexual attraction to children, albeit slightly older children. Some of the young women may have been slightly older teens but apparently were still made to dress as schoolgirls and wax off their pubic hair. I think it's very clear what age group this man was sexually interested in.

Is there something in people's minds that thinks that young teenage girls with emerging sexual identities are somehow more ready for adult sex than children are? That because they might have breasts and hormones that it is more 'ok' or 'normal' for them to be exposed to adult sex than it would be for a 9yo? I don't understand.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 13:38

Vallhala - Though the nature of the crime may be the same the nature of the perpetrator may not be. Someone who is attracted to young adults isn't necesserily attracted to pre-pubescents. That is the distinction we need to make.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:41

That's given me lots to think about Eric, ta.

It makes me realise I have been approaching it from a kind of moral/ethical perspective (ie the act and the intention) rather than from the perspective of damage done to the victim (which perhaps I should).

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QuelleLeJeff · 08/03/2011 13:41

The "convicted paedophile" is just a shorthand really isn't it? A shorthand for a rapist who had sex with a fourteen year old.

I couldn't give less of a shit about whether the use of the word "paedophile" is factually inaccurate if a middle aged man has been raping 14 year old girls.

CaptainNancy · 08/03/2011 13:42

Ephebophilia is the term.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:42

and I agree with Coalition - a distinction needs to be made. If I were introduced to someone and knew they had sexually abused a 3 year old (cannot see that happening, but you see what I mean), I would find it almost impossible not to grind the broken edge of a glass bottle into his face. If I were introduced to someone who had slept with a 15 year old, I would want to slap him.

I may be wrong, but I am trying very hard to be honest.

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LeninGrad · 08/03/2011 13:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 13:43

EricNorthmansMistress - It's not that it is any more ok, it is that the psychology and pathology of the perpetrator is different.

An older person who has sex with a 14 year old is certainly abusing power, committing statutory rape, and so on but may well be within the normal range of sexual desire. Someone who has sex with a 3 year old clearly is not.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:45

Couldn't agree more about 'child porn' Lenin.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 13:46

QuelleLeJeff - And if the lack of distinction leads to the perpetrators being treated in the wrong way and this leads to offending rates going up? You have to deal with things as they are not just dimsiss all aberrant behaviour as identical to all other aberrant behaviour.

QuelleLeJeff · 08/03/2011 13:47

If someone raped my child at either 3 or at 14 I think I'd be feeling pretty much the same about them TBH.

GenuineQuery · 08/03/2011 13:48

Quelle, I'm sure you know your own mind, but I really doubt that's true.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 08/03/2011 13:49

LeninGrad - what about depictions of sex with children that are produced without any children being involved such as drawings? I think that would have to be described as child porn.

QuelleLeJeff · 08/03/2011 13:50

But the question isn't about "treatment" is it? The question was about how it was being reported in the press?

I personally think that a middle aged man raping 14 year olds is on a par with a middle aged man raping pre-pubescent children - and can you explain what you mean about offending rates going up?

bemybebe · 08/03/2011 13:56

Sorry, did not read all the answers yet... but here a thought. A classmate of mine was an early developer, 11 year-old going on 14 with periods, large breasts and all. Mentally though she was very much a 11 year-old child. Do you imply that a tall, well developed child is a fair game if she looks like "a woman"???

SpermyShenanigans · 08/03/2011 13:56

Sadly I don't think that being attracted to emotionally immature but physically-developed teenage girls makes him a "twisted pervert" in the culture we live in.

I wonder if there is an element of dare I say, jealousy about the press coverage? They know they are sensationalising by using the word, "paedophile" and that's their business. Especially since he is a billionaire. I just get the impression that there is a feeling of, "I'd like to do that but since I can't..." behind this sort of thing when it happens.

Maybe I'm just bitter having had a BF my age who considered me past it when I was in my early twenties Hmm

DuelingFanjo · 08/03/2011 13:58

he's definitely a convicted sex-offender. he even pleaded guilty.