to think this an extreme over reaction by a police officer?

[Kitsilano]

My friend was walking her kids home from school yesterday as she does every day. She has 4 (the eldest is 6yrs old, the youngest 1yr). The eldest was scooting ahead of the pushchair but within sight, is well taught to stop and wait at each curb while she catches up so they can cross the road together.

She was stopped by a policeman who said she wasn't taking care of her children properly and was placing them in danger. She disagreed, they had a discussion and eventually he got in his car to drive off. Before he left she went to the car window and asked for his police number as she wanted to make a complaint.

At this point, he said he was going to report her to social services.

She is now distraught and angry, doesn't feel what she was doing amounts to putting her children in danger and feels bullied because he decided to escalate it because she asked for his number.

What do you think? Any social workers know what might happen next?

Prettybird - I had just found that site too - it doesn't say anything about warnings on it though so I really don't know anything about a warning.

This is all I could find on "warnings"

As far as I can make out, the OP'd friend would have had to sign something saying she accepted the caution/warning. If she didn't, then the police would have had to make the decision as to whether or not to prosecute.

You do have to sign a declaration to say that you have understood the reason for being given a caution and only certain police officers can issue a caution. A complaint should be made because as i said in my ealier post ss have to investigate every CP referral from the police and in this case a referal was not needed. If the op description is correct it was a typical behaviour happening daily from most primary schools. SS would grind to a halt.

If your friend watches one of the uk real life police television programmes she will see a verbal warning and a proper caution being given. A caution has its own ref number so she can easily find out on Monday. She does not have to go back to the police station she can do it over the phone.

Policeman is an arse. She had a perfect right to his number - it's not a state secret. Twat!

Did they even ask her her name? Address? etc etc etc

Mountain out of mole hill springs to mind.

it would have been on his shoulder she didnt have to ask

This sounds very bizarre.

As I understand it, argument with police officer in the street, no details exchanged. She goes to police station to complain and they go "ah ha, it's you, is it, have a caution and a SS report".

Either your friend is badly mistaken about what was said, or exaggerating, or the police station staff have made a spectacular cock-up.

You cannot just be given a caution. To receive a caution you have to admit the offence in interview - ie a proper, sit-down, read-your-rights, tape-recorded interview. The police officer then has to refer the matter to an inspector who toddles down with some paperwork, reads a spiel and the caution is given and recorded.

Is your friend sure they didn't just warn her about her behaviour, or perhaps caution her (in the lay sense) that she was being reported to SS?

Also, it seems very strange that the police officer would go back to the police station and spend time writing up a report about someone he hadn't arrested/issued with a penalty notice/arranged a police station appointment for, presumably on the off chance that she did in fact come in to make a complaint and volunteer her details for the SS report.

All very strange.

If you don't ever have any involvement with the police then you dont' really understand what a caution is, I think that's the problem with OP's friend saying something about a caution (it's not a formal caution, some kind of warning instead).

Load of pants, the whole thing. I think a call to the IPCC might be in order. But OP's friend has to be totally sure of her ground, that she's in the right.

Kungfu's post is spot on. She would definitely have a formal, recorded interview before receiving a caution.

Another one who totally agrees with Kungfupannda

me too kungfu dh is police and iam ss and we both think as it was out of hrs the concerns would have gone to edt or the help desk.Dont get a caution just like that and what for?what is the offence?
FWIW i hate driving past our infant schoolwhen wobbly and unpredictable kid are running up front on narrow pavements!!

Your friend feels she's being bullied because the policeman escalated things? Surely it's your friend who escalated things when she asked for his number to make a complaint??!!! Policemen see and have to deal with lots of horrible accidents - can't your friend accept that he was acting in the best interests of her children? Maybe he'd just come from a road accident involving a child and was being a bit over-cautious.

She sounds hysterical and completely over the top in her reactions.

Kungfu - yes I think you are right re the caution - she must have got the wrong end of the stick. But he said he was going to report her to social services after she asked for his number - before she ever went to the police station.

At the police station they confirmed that they would be reporting to social services.

catwalker - Maybe you're right about him just being a bit over cautious but surely she's entitled to make a complaint if she is unhappy with the way a situation has been handled without THEN being threatened with social services as a retaliation?

If social services get involved and your friend is not lying, then she won't have anything to worry about. Is she blind? Most coppers wear their numbers on their shoulders.

Redbin - he was in the car by then ,so would be hard to see number .

"I would rather an over-cautious policeman than an under-cautious one as far as child safety is concerned."

But where do you stop? To take just this one example: if a police officer warns mothers to hold the hands of their six-year olds to cut the risk fo the child running into the road, what about 7yos? 8? 18? Life involves risk. There is a risk in letting police officers turn into bumptious officious twats who abuse their authority, too.

It sounds as if your friend is getting into a bit of a tizzy about this.

It seems she was spoken to about having proper supervision of her children in the road. She got in a strop, the officer probably didn't communicate to her very well what his concerns were (at the moment I am thinking it may be a PCSO and not a police officer).

There is no way she has been cautioned for any criminal offence without her knowledge or admitting a criminal offence.

I suspect a report may have gone to social services because she couldn't give a shit about supervising her children. Only guessing though.

Catwalker, you seem to be saying that it's the mother's own fault for being reported to social services as she challenged a police officer, so he was justified in making a relatiatory complaint? He didn't think the matter serious enough to make it formal and was actually driving off until she asked for his number. What an officious bully.

Actually OP it's quite a very serious situation. In the era of enhanced CRBs you no longer need to be tried and convicted of an offence to gain a criminal record. Allegations and complaints are treated the same as convictions in certain circumstances. If in future she wants to work in a caring profession, foster, adopt, or even take kids on a school trip, she could be prevented from doing so.

OP your friend needs to clarify exactly what is being done to her, and make any complaint about the police a formal one (ie not be fobbed off with the verbal apology she's received so far when the complaint to SS is still progressing). It would be unwise to let it go.

I thinking this is giant pile of codswallop.

I had a similar experience on Friday after picking DS1 up from school. He was scooting along a wide pavement next to a main road & i was about 10 metres away from him walking parallel along a footpath with a green between us. It goes without saying that if i wasn't confident he wouldn't stay clear of the road & be mindful of other people that I wouldn't allow him to do this. Two PCSOs were walking towards him & when he slowed down to let them pass one of them muttered something to him about staying with his mum & gestured towards two women chatting outside a house who had their backs to DS1 & the road, he didn't even clock me. The other PCSO didn't even look at DS1 & they both carried on their way.

Now my attitude was similar to your friend's OP (i.e. he wasn't in danger/i wasn't being neglectful) but I didn't argue with them. If they had tried to stop DS1 or approached his "mum" I may have acted differently but really what would have been the point? I think your friend has overeacted. Yes the officer was probably being heavy handed but what is she doing arguing with a PO on the street about something so trivial? Surely his intentions were good? I don't get this story at all. I work in criminal defence so I'm all for challenging the police if they act outside their authority but this sounds as BuzzLiteBeer so eloquently put it like codswallop!

And just to reiterate what others have said, she would not have received a caution/warning in the circumstances you/she have described. Sounds like complete jackanory to me! If SS come a calling I imagine it'll be for reasons other than this!

Of course she shouldn't have been threatened with social services; she should have been threatened with prosecution for wasting police time. If she's the kind of woman who thinks it's OK to get into an unnecessary argument with anyone in front of her kids then maybe her judgement about whether or not her kids were being supervised properly is not very sound.

Nonsense.

I would love to know the proportion of threads that get posted after someone ponders on some hypothetical situation and decides to present it as real in order to gauge others opinions. No harm in it I suppose, but really, who could be arsed? Other than those who clearly can, of course....