To think our society/culture does not support bf...

[Kippersontoast]

...and this is the main reason for a lot of women being unable to do it?

In my nct class we were told that you were only unable to breast feed if your breasts were damaged or you have an underlying medical condition. I am astonished at the amount of women on this and other forums who say that they didn't produce enough milk to feed their babies. Do all these women have damaged breasts or medical problems?

Anyway, it got me thinking after visiting my Hindi neighbour who had a baby two weeks ago and is overrun with support from her huge family. She stays in bed all day feeding and sleeping, is brought food and has nothing to worry about except establishing bf.

This simply doesn't happen in the western culture. Most of my friends had very little or no support from their family and were expected to just get on with it as well as looking after their other dc's, cleaning, laundry cooking etc. Needless to say, bf fell by the wayside because they couldn't just loll in bed all day.

I know some women really struggle with bf and I'm sure that if the conditions were right eg more support to enable them to do nothing but bf, a lot more women would be able to do it.

Aibu or is it just the way things are when families don't rally round?

To the ladies who genuinely didnt have milk/struggled with latch etc, does it bother you that people use your genuine problem as an excuse?

It would bother me. For example, I suffer badly with migraines, it always bugs me if someone rings in sick and claims to have a migraine when they dont...

You can bloody ave him

Does the lizzy come with him?

Although my zoo house is getting quite full...

I breastfed both of my ds & with my 2nd my 1st ds was only a year old. So i very much doubt that lazying around increases ur ability. I produced more milk then needed but a good friend of mine couldnt feed her 1st child by bf as she just didnt get on with it. And she lazed around endlessly. lol. x

DD didn't struggle to latch, their just wasn't anything coming out,tried electronic breastpumps, hand held, the nurses stimulated my breasts for me, I sat for hours poking round me bloody nipples, didn't get a single drop. And I had a good birth with both, no stitches or anything, felt fine.

When dd started on the bottles I continued trying to breastfeed for weeks, she'd latch on fine and chugg away but I didn't produce anything and she'd end up screaming with hunger.

Don't really care what anybody else does, none of my business tbh

I FF my first three children. the first two I had no intention of breastfeeding, I didnt want to. At that point in my life I felt more comfortable bottlefeeding for a variety of reasons. I didnt bother makign up excuses and no one ever mentioned it My third I made a very half hearted attempt because by then I was more settled in myself as a mother and felt as though for the benefits it may be worth a try but we had problems with jaundice and tbh I wasnt that concerned so I went to ff - this time people did act a little judgy about me giving up and I found myself playign up the jaundice to divert their questions ever though deep down I know that the milk wasnt the problem.

My fourth and I started breastfeeding and It sounds cheesy but I feel as though I am now at a point in my life where I CAN devote myself to breastfeeding and started off with the intention that I would feed luckily we had no problems and 7 months on we are still going - people have been really quite hostile to me even goign as far as to call her my favourite and implying that the other have some how been neglected because they were FF.

My fourth child is as loved, healthy and as much my baby as the others but I can see now how pressure to feed in a certain way affects some women - YANBU to think that most women can feed, it is other people that force them to lie/overstate the reasons they chose not to!

I think it's true that the breasts are seen as a sexual organ and a lot of people think it's obscene to BF a baby in a public place. I heard a lot of comments suggesting this before I had a child (mostly from men, surprise surprise) and that ignorant attitude probably won't change anytime soon.
Ive been BF my DD for a year now and I can't say I've had any negative comments at all other than how it was ridiculous to feed on demand (MIL) and babies only need a drink every 4 hours.
I would still feel awkward BF in public though, much more so now that DD is older, I probably wouldn't do it at all now as I feel there is a stigma attached to feeding a toddler and people would be talking and staring.

Just to add my 2p on the matter - I do think the rush to get home is also part of the problem. DD was rather ill just after she was born so we stayed in hospital for 6 days. I know most people I have spoken to about this have said how horrible, but to be honest it was fantastic, it provided lots of time for DD and I to get used to each other without family constantly being around, and although it did get a bit lonely I could spend as much time wandering around my room with my boobs out and lying to the bed trying to find positions that worked for us, which I definetly couldn't have done at home. So by the time we left hospital she was feeding like a pro.

I obviously cannot say what would have happened if I'd gone straight home the day after she was born, but I do know with MiL staying there and her instance to constantly wipe down the sodding phone, but never do anything helpful would have made me incredibly stressed, and maybe it wouldn't have worked.

I have told DP when we start trying for number 2 we have to make sure we have enough savings to pay for at least a few nights in a private room so we can repeat the process.

"If you've never had a baby latch on, it tends to dry up within about 5 weeks. It just doesn't stimulate a supply in the way the strong suck of a newborn does. There are hormonal factors too which influence it if you only ever use a pump. So its not sustainable in the long term, no matter how dedicated you are."

Not neccessarliy true - my baby never latched and had exclusive expressed milk for seven months. Not easy with a disabled 2 year old to look after and zero family help, but do-able. Everyone is different though and I wouldn't ever think less of anyone who moved onto formula.

"Well your Hindi neighbour was lucky to have family willing to do that. Though I'm not sure waiting on a new Mum hand and foot is the best way to get her used to motherhood."
Worraliberty, that reminds me of my friend whose midwife would not allow her to sleep after giving birth as " you are a mother now. Mothers dont sleep!!"

ha ha

The best way to prepare for motherhood is by getting used to your baby, learning how to do everything (inc feeding) and gradually absorbing the responsibility.
The shock and awe that seems to be the norm in the UK is probably the reason that one in ten suffer from PND!

I dont think there is a lot of help for women who are having trouble feeding, and I too would like to see more support for those that want to.

My sister was recently told by midwives in hospital "you can't bf twins" (she is doing so with not much bother actually but it took a bf counselor to help her before she could do it right)

As far as "society" discouraging bf'ing I guess you have to decide whether or not you give a shit. I didn't actually realise when I had my child that bf'ing was still considered shocking to do in public, and remember feeding on packed trains, on park benches, and at one point on a bench right outside Arsenal football ground on a Saturday afternoon!
(Not one of the football fans said a word!)
You just have to do it as normal, and then it will be normal.

Also, breast are sexual. They are also functional. Things can have two purposes-nobody has to choose, similarly you dont have to loll around feeding ever half hour if you bf, you can choose to mix feed (I did). You can bf and not be an attachment parent, you can bf until 6 months and then switch.

I hate this all or nothing/polarised argument. It's so pointless.

Someone once said that they are a bit[shocked] at people who don't want to BF because 'breasts are sexual' yet its ok to do the deed via the bottom!

YANBU I think. And I don't agree with this

Well your Hindi neighbour was lucky to have family willing to do that. Though I'm not sure waiting on a new Mum hand and foot is the best way to get her used to motherhood.

I think it is the best way to get used to motherhood. Do all the bonding and baby stuff while others help out with housework and cleaning and things like that. Not everyone has that option of course.

OP I think what you say is very true - with my DD2 I had a scary birth and no help post birth - DH struggling to look after DD1 - baby on boob the whole time - mastitis three times in three weeks - remember lying in bed having had nothing to eat for two days and thinking I have to give F in order that DD2 would sleep for at least half an hour so I could sort myself out and get some food. With DS3 I was fully prepared and completely determined to make BF work and thankfullu after hellish first month we managed to keep going and still going now at 5 mths but honestly I have never struggled so much in my life and can't help thining that had I had a relative stay a couple of weeks and help with the other two and perhaps make a meal or two it would have been much more of a pleasent start!

Posted this in anotheer thread but want to repeat it here.

I really don't understand why some women get so wound up about how other women choose to feed. I seriously don't care what other women choose to feed their kids.

In my own case I tried to BF in hospital and after 3 days my baby lost so much weight she ended up with deydration seizures in SBU. I was basically made to FF her as she wasnt latching. I decided that I would not give up and kept trying with no luck. I started expressing so she's been getting a mixture of BF and FF. She refuses the breast and screams when I try to give it to her...

I kept telling the breastfeeding counsellers that she wasn't latching and they kept telling me to persevere and that I shouldn't have given her the bottle so early because she's now confused and finds the bottle easier. They put the baby in various positions and at one point she stayed on for 2 mins at the cxounseller declared it a success and told me to persevere(sp?).

I was finally recommended my 3rd breast counseller who immediately diagnosed DD (by this time 8 weeks old) as being severly tongue tied.

Told my GP who told me that the official line on tongue ties are that they don't affect BF. The BF counseller then refered me on to the only specialist in London that believes they are an issue and when he checked DD he said her TT was so severe she would never have been able to BF. He cut it off and I'm now trying to reastablish BF but I fear its now too late.

I have spoken to other women and it seems TTs can be a factor in many stopping BF but many health professionals don't take it seriously.

My DD was seen by countless midwives a pediatrician and 3 breast feeding counsellors before it was dealt with!!

Please stop making women who FF feel guilty, you have no idea why sone of us go down that path.

Too little respect for diversity. You MUST breast-feed (but not on the bus), you MUST do it this way, that way or some other way and only that way until a new study comes out saying the exact opposite.

When I was expecting DD our pregnancy and childrearing book said: Many in-laws want to rush round and see the new baby, tell them to f off, this is a special time for you, your partner and the baby. I was appalled at the failure to think that in other cultures, this is a special time for the whole extended family - not just you and your nuclear knot. My feeling was, anyone who wanted to come and visit, hoover my house, cook food and make a fuss of me while I lay about recuperating was more than welcome. However my outlaws are lovely people who worship me for producing their only grandchild, I sympathise with Piggyleroux if she has got grumpy miserable people who make her feel bad - she should have the right to bar them from those special first days.

I found bf really hard work and painful. Got some good help from a breastfeeding support group which saved my sanity and allowed DD to carry on until we were ready for her to move on. My sister was a martyr to bf - trying to keep a tiny baby alive by bf 10 hours at a time, later it turned out that all the medical professionals seeing her had failed to notice the enormous cleft palate the baby had which prevented him from suckling properly.

Let people do different things, whatever suits them, don't try to make people feel bad by prescribing only one way of doing things.

(PS My cousin says you can mix breast and bottle too - which the professionals will tell you no-can-do.)

Capricorn 76 I read your post after I had posted mine. So sorry to hear what a hard time the professionals gave you - all because they are fixated on there being a Right Way and a Wrong Way to do things. :(
Hope things go well with you now.

I don't think it is a problem-if people want to bf they will. I don't see why you have to loll about in bed and I wouldn't want family doing everything for me. It is a perfectly normal thing to do. Some people want to, and overcome any difficulties, and some people don't want to-I can't see why either matters to others.

Capricorn I replied on other thread too to say your perseverance was humbling to read - you are not judged at all and have nothing to feel guilty about - so sorry you had a hard time and I repeat that I just because I am at how some women use the excuse of no milk, I am not dismissive of you ladies who actually really struggled with milk supply and again, you are not at all judged so please don't feel you are x

I chose to FF both of mine after the first week. I never wanted to breasfeed but did not make any excuses, just said I had chosen to FF. Can't remember anyone being bothered or saying anything much to me - I made sure I bf in hospital to keep the midwives off my back though as they seemed to regard ff as akin to child abuse. . Don't ever regret it.

Can we get away from saying that BF is difficult and time-consuming as a rule? Some women may find it so, but certainly not all!

I had no experience of babies at all before I had DD1, no support from anyone, and my DH went back to work one week after DD1 was born. But I wanted to BF, not militantly :), just thought it was normal. In the hospital I tried to BF, couldn't quite work it out at first, midwives didn't really help, except by giving her my expressed colostrum by cup. Went home...and just did it. No heureka moment, I just wanted to BF her and I did - for 10 months when she literally refused any more. With DD2 it was even easier, I just fed her, no problems, no fuss.

BFing does not take hours, nowhere near, and BFing is great as I can sit down and read or eat or look at the internet. It never hurt, not at all. It also hasn't been difficult in any way. What was difficult were the couple of times I warmed up bottles of EBM for DD1 in the middle of the night, all the hassle while she was screaming.

I can't believe so many people claim that FFing is easier when you have to sterilise, fill and warm up bottles every time your baby needs a feed as opposed to just putting your breast in the baby's mouth?

I think often it really is down to people's attitudes. When you think that BFing is difficult to start with, you don't really stand a chance.

Did I mention I lost all the baby weight from DD1 in 5 weeks while BFing, and continued to eat hearty plates of pasta and snacks of chocolate every day while BFing, and remained the same weight throughout?

So please stop describing BFing as some huge ordeal - it isn't.

Well Marianne, I think the problem is that when something is easy (as bf'ng was for me too) noone really talks about it.
I didn't personally find myself housebound (see feeding at Arsenal stadium) or in pain BUT clearly it is not that way for everyone.

It's just like sleeping. Some babies sleep like a dream and their mothers can't understand the fuss about sleep deprivation, and some don't (mine didn't) and really these things can be fairly random.

I do think that in general midwives and hv's in this country are fucking awful at dealing with individual needs and ime they treat you either like an idiot or a criminal simply for having the temerity to reproduce at all!

A bit of understanding on both sides is whats needed I think.