To Think A Teacher Should Be Able To Control a 4 Year Old?

[midori1999]

Maybe control is not quite the right word, but...

My friend's DS is 4. He is also extremely clever. My friend finds him a little difficult at home, but nothing exceptional. I've looked after him a bit and he is determined, but nothing outrageous.

Today he was sent home 'on report' with a letter from his teacher asking my friend to give him a 2 minute time out when he got home and also to replace a rubber he damaged during school time. Last week my friend was asked to go in to the school to give her son a time out for behaviour the previous day as the teacher had been unable to give him a time out at the time of the behaviour. From what I can gather there have been a few other letter home about behaviour.

Is this really normal procedure in schools now or is this an unusual way of dealing with things?

AIBU to think a teacher should easily be able to 'outsmart' a 4 year old and get him to behave?

Big difference between teaching children personal care milestones that the vast majority of children should have reached by reception year, and helping them to learn the rules of the classroom, extending their ability to concentrate, etc.

But tbh if teachers don't want to deal with bad behaviour then what are they doing becoming teachers? It's not a new thing that discipline is part of the teacher's job.

YANBU calling in a mum to give a time out is extraordinary, as is trying to punish a child for something that was done the previous day! Is the teacher young/new, she needs to get a grip of her class by the sounds of it!

The serial offender has apparently damaged an eraser so far????? The teacher is clearly ineffective in how she is using discipline otherwise she wouldn't be dictating to the parents that they use a method of disciplining which is only effective when used in a timely way.

But teachers sign up to teach a range of children, and schools need to have ways of dealing with behaviour in situ, as well as working with the parents.

Thanks LeQ - as a sec teacher I feel nothing but pity for primary teachers who are confronted by free-range children (aka posh ferals - go on, flame me. Whereas the 'poorer' parents are grateful for support and prepared to work with us, the middle-class (misguided subset) are IMPOSSIBLE to reason with and produce the worst offspring of all. By Year 7 many of the angel-faced Josh/Jemimas exhibit entrenched habits which have clearly worn down their poor teachers who are delighted to see the back of them at the end of the (dreaded by the profession) Year 6 ... give me bottom set Year 11 any day, by which time they have evaluated their feeble 'progressive' parents and will tell you exactly how they themselves plan to parent - which is the plumb opposite of the 'uncontrolled self-expression', frankly passe, style of the 80s to fairly recently. Luckily the wheel turns ... we can but hope ! Yours will be welcome wherever they go, I'm quite sure. When commonsense parenting has prevailed, we can focus on academic achievement - not reasoning with children :)

Wow albertcamus I feel nothing but pity for the children that you teach.

If teachers despise parents so much it doesn't exactly make for the best basis for helping the children does it?

For context, I'm a huge fan of discipline and get really frustrated with parents who won't tell their kids off or instil boundaries. But it's not my job to work with those children.

I think the difference now, schmee, is that often parents aren't supportive of the teacher. It can be a case of 'How dare you say my little Filbert did something naughty - he says he didn't and he would never ever lie to his mummy'.

It's not long ago that if you were in trouble at school, you were in trouble again at home.

(Yes, sweeping generalisation, there have always been crap parents and there are supportive parents out there - but the balance has begun to tip somewhat, I think)

Agree and it must be really frustrating - although when I hear teachers talk about parents in the way albertcamus did, I think the communication breakdown has two sides.

But I do think that teachers do need to accept responsibility for controlling the children during school time as much as possible. There are always going to be kids whose parents don't support any efforts by the school, and the school needs to find a way of dealing with that.

In the OPs scenario though, it did seem to me that the teacher just wasn't doing her job and was resorting to letters home rather than dealing with the behaviour in the classroom and/or discussing it with the parent to agree a strategy.

It sounds to me that the teacher is punishing the child at school and wants the parents to reinforce her sanctions at home - back up the school so he realises his behaiour is unacceptable

The teacher may well be able to Control a 4 year old.
What she may not be able to do, is control a 4 yr old within a classroom of 25/30 4 year olds, AND teach effectively AND ensure progress and attainment among all the other children.

Oh and of course thats without the range of rewards and sanctions that a parent has at their disposal.

Slight difference, which the OP, and certainly the childs mother, appear to have overlooked.

I agree with all the poster making the point that 1 4yo yes, very easy to deal with, 25/30 4yo quite a bit harder!

OP and other posters who say "the teacher called me to say DC pushed/broke something and to time out/replace..." does teacher call you at end of lesson when you come and pick up or during the day to ask you to come to school and deal with it?

It is just possible that his behaviour is not the same at home as at school, so the mother isn't seeing the whole of it. Children often behave differently in different situations. My dd was a challenging child at home, but behaved immaculately at school (thankfully). Ds' friend otoh was a lovely sweet boy outside of school, but the playground bully when he got there (he grew out of it and is now a lovely sweet boy everywhere). Being in a large group affects children differently.

ds2 is explosive and bad tempered at home, but very pleasant and chatty at school (so I have been informed)

When they told me they were putting him in the nurture group because he was so quiet that he needed help to make friends, I absolutely reeled with shock. Ds2? Quiet?

And yet there's a little girl in his class who is charming out of school, I regularly see her skipping along next to her elderly grandmother who assures me (I know her of old) that the child is a delight, yet once in the playground her sole source of delight seems to be pulling hair and kicking children who are smaller than her.

Children can be very different at school.

And i agree with the teacher who said it is the middle class subset (and a very small minority at that) who refuse to deal with the bad behavior of their children, referring to them as "Spirited" or "very assertive" instead of "uncontrollable and rude".

Thanks for the replies.

I do appreciate there is a difference between being able to control a few children and 30 or so children, so yes, maybe I was BU about that.

However, I can't help feeling that the teacher has undermined her own authority by having to call the parent in to do something she could not, (apparently she asked the child to do a time out and he point blank said no) instead of finding an alternative way to manage the behaviour. I assume she asked Mum to do the second time out after school because she knew she wouldn't be able to. No star charts or similar methods have been discussed with my friend in order to encourage good behaviour rather than punish poor.

My friend probably does let her DS get away with things at times, yes. She is aware of this, trying to deal with it and very upset and embarrassed she had to be called in to school. She is very quiet and shy and felt very self conscious about being 'made' to give her son a time out in front of his teacher. As a result she is too embarrassed to go in and discuss further with the teacher for the time being and her DH is working away so not able to for some time.

LeQueen - it's not about me, but since you ask the question, no, I've never worked in a class of 20 4 year olds because I don't personally feel that I'd be equipped to deal with them, engage them and to help them to learn. That's why I'm not a reception teacher.

I'm actually really supportive of my children's teachers, although I do find that I have a more strict attitude towards sitting still and behaviour than the teachers do. But I also think that it's the teacher's job to control their class and if they are not capable of doing that, they shouldn't be in the job. You are teaching the child, not the parent, so you need to be able to do that.

I have to say that any teacher who suggested I punish my child for something that happened in school would have been laughed at. Yes I have talked to my children about the kind of behaviour I expect in school. I have discussed why their behaviour has at times fallen short, and supported the schools methods for improving behaviour (such as telling an adult and getting away rather than lashing out).

I'm afraid your friend needs to become more assertive. Maybe she needs to make an appointment with the head to discuss how the school and home can work together to improve his behaviour. It will sound very positive and pro-active, but may also help if this teacher is in difficulties supporting the class. Our children do need us to be there for them, including comunicating with the school, and this will continue over their whole school career.

Well said mummytime

LeQueen - so if the parents aren't able or willing to help the school address the behavioural issues what do you suggest? Exclusion of a four-year-old for not being able to sit still or breaking an eraser?

Yes it's a PITA for those of us who do discipline effectively and do support the school, if there are children who are difficult and disruptive. One of my children was literally savaged by a child whose parents clearly had never been able to instil any boundaries. But it wouldn't have helped anyone if the teachers hadn't taken responsibility for the situation.