Ex forces members as schoolteachers, (Panorama tonight?)

[GabbyLoggon]

Are they being unreasoable?

Its a government idea copied from America
(suprise, suprise)

Training ex forces members to be schoolteachers (It has always been open for them to do that.)

Is it a gimmick? The trouble is Cameron learned from Blair the art of regular publicity stunts.

So it is difficult to know what to take seriously.

What do the teaching profession think of it? "Gabby"

I've worked alongside the light blues for years, especially in the establishments where training takes place. I see some really impressive people, who do have all sorts of qualifications suitable for schools, with no bullying, shouting, etc, etc in sight.

If you want an idea about how these establishments work and the people involved, why not take a look at their OFSTED reports?

LDNMummy, your description of military training does not match what I have seen. I see a wide diversity of young people from all sorts of backgrounds, people who are able to interact with anyone. I think you might be the one who is surprised.

Surely the whole point is to give ex-service people an edge over others, as part of doing right by them, and being seen to do so? And giving them an edge means, by definition, being unfair.

I must say, it seems right to do this, if only to apologize for sending them off to be shot at in a stupid, pointless and unwinnable war.

LDN - sorry, your last post contained a lot of generalisations that are simply not true. There will be plenty of people who trained in the military who are not suited to teaching - as there will be many 22 year olds who are not. I really dispute the point however that an average ex-military candidate would be less suited to teaching than a average 22 year old.

Even a 22 year old that has been brought up in a rough estate with a variety of challenges and difficulties to overcome is unlikely to have seen many of the things that many ex-services personnel will have seen in terms of different countries/cultures/poverty and way of life. One of the things I have been sought after for by many CIVILIAN organisations(even if I say so myself... ) and paid a lot of money for, are the leadership skills and confidence that my military training has given me. As my post below says

'the military is one of the very few places where everyone from an NCO upwards is given extremely focussed training on leadership, role modelling and how the importance of how they present themselves. That training is NOT just about issuing orders and screaming at people - it is about respecting others in the way you lead them, appearing confident, engaged and focussed and displaying a 'can-do' attitude and a passionate interest in your subject.'

You are given some pretty unequivocal feedback on your strengths and weaknesses and how you come across to others which is hugely valuable in any working environment.

Oh - and the majority of military people worked in civilian jobs before they joined, and are married to and socialise with civilians. The idea that we struggle to mix with others and can only operate in one way is laughable and naive (few too many Rambo viewings perchance...?)

Please don't get me wrong - I am not in any way saying that all ex-military personnel are suited to teaching. I am merely saying that SOME of the skills you get from the military are hugely transferable and relevant to classrooms. This is not about putting scary shouty 'Bad Lads Army' style people in classrooms - far from it.

Sunday Times says that troos without a degree will be able to sign up for a two year teaching degree, tuition fees paid and a bursary of up to £9,000 a year.
Troops who already have a degree will be able to sign onto a programme called Teach Next, which will provide 6 weeks of training befor sending them into schools.

Yet another government experiment. If it works, fantastic. If not, it won't be any of the children of those in government or their friends that will be harmed, so it's low risk for those deciding policy.
Either way, I'll be watching with fascination, having been deprived of all those yummy bunnies from the city we were promised a few years back who were going to flood into schools and teach us all how to teach and be successful.
What happened to that plan?

goblin - Thats interesting, and yes, although I have been defending the sort of people that could end up on the ex-military programme, I also share your wish that it be properly administered. I thought Teach First (the programme I assume you are alluding to) had been reasonably successful, although I have not been intimately involved with it.

I've got a military background and have met a wide range of military types, some of whom would be a disaster in a classroom and some who would be rather good. So I'm neutral at the moment.
It is an interesting experiment, parents and everyone else complain enough about teachers, teaching and education as it is, so let's have a shake up and see what happens.

'
I think a 22 year old boy from an estate or working class background who has actual street knowledge and experience of what it is to be a young person in todays society means, will have a better chance as a teacher than military person who has led a completely different kind of life to these young people and who doesn't know how to relate.'

Most people I know in the military grew up on estates and then joined the military so have done both.

Teach First is already up and running and not limited to the military, the other training schemes are also already in place and again not limited to the military and have already been used to lure people from industry to fill the maths/science shortages.

Ldn - as others have pointed out your generalisations of the military are both misleading and outdated.... and whilst there are some servicemen and women who fit into your generalisation they are the people least likely to want to go into teaching.

The service personnel who have gone into education in my experience have done so through a desire to teach and I don't think this initiative will influence many who don't want to do it already. There are other options for service personnel that offer the same, if not better pay and better opportunities if they are financially motivated.

"Most of them would make far better teachers IMO than military people who have had a life primarily steeped in military discourse, ideology and doctrine. Yes you can travel and experience things but your training is with a singular goal in mind and does not take into account diversity for instance. In the military the people you primarily interact with are cut of the same cloth as yourself because the people who make up the military are part of a culture within a culture, that is why there are military people and civilians. There is a clear distinction and always has been between the two types of social groups.

Military culture is based on the use of lethal force, violence, weaponry etc... People who are trained this way cannot just transfer their skills to teaching, they lack an understanding of life skills outside the military of how to relate to people who do not come from this kind of background." (LDNmummy 18:09:04)

I'm sorry to disagree LDNmummy but I've lived with Dh for 12 years and I can assure you that military personnel do not spend all of their time only talking to other military personnel because they're 'cut from the same cloth'.

They're quite able to talk to anyone, have far fewer hang ups and actually, spend a lot of time with civvies in industry. For example, my dh, during his last posting, spend a lot of time working with a a large aeronautical engineering company, working with government and other engineering companies specializing in his area. He is a father of two and loves watching CSI Top Gear and Come Dine with Me .

He is able to make conversation with everyone and anyone, whether it be to children, teachers, royalty or the bloke who works in Toys R Us! In fact he is currently studying with and chatting to the Crown Prince of Jordan so you can't say that's not a varied ability to talk to anyone!

For certain, I would much rather an ex military guy teach my ds (6)than his current teacher who has no children of her own and is oblivious to my questions regarding his OCD tendancies!

This whole thread has made me quite upset and if nothing else, I do think the government owe the military personnel leaving the army a good chance at applying to teach if they want after leaving, having spent so long serving Queen and country, that's the least they deserve.

LDN thank goodness you put IMO because what you say is so incorrect, it's not factual at all!

Also a lot of people I know joined the military as they were on the streets dealing or getting in to bother.

There are people from affluent places in the military and there are plenty from the most deprived areas in the uk. There are many different people in the forces and many different reasons for joining.

LDN, I have to say I find your last post extremely offensive and packed full of stereotypes.
There are of course extremes in every walk of life, but have you thought about what you have written? Not every person in the military is a mindless thug hellbent on violence, in fact anyone showing a predisposition for uncontrolled thuggery would be swiftly removed/banned from the military.
Perhaps you should be grateful that there are people in this country prepared to put their lives on the line to protect your rights and freedoms.

[shakes head and walks away]

Agree Cavemum I am ex military and I am very 'girly'. I have no idea about lethal force or killing. I held a rifle a couple of times when I was in but not really. A lot of people never even end up doing anything like that.

Well said CaveMum

Hmm, I too was going to use the word 'offensive' cavemum but LDN said she was pregnant so didn't want to upset her .

However, I feel really offended by the comments (her's in particular).

I don't think school rules are going to change because the military are comimg. You may indeed be able to snap a neck with a single blow, or take out an enemy outpost with a single shot from 1,000 yards, but I doubt that either skill will be useeful in an educational environment.
Just like I can use a sabre and once won awards for my prowess. Never been allowed to use it as a method of discipline in school.

"Military culture is based on the use of lethal force, violence, weaponry etc... People who are trained this way cannot just transfer their skills to teaching, they lack an understanding of life skills outside the military of how to relate to people who do not come from this kind of background"

load of shite.

Using just me as an example (yeah, yeah, anecdote not data!). I grew up on an estate. I worked as a civilian before I joined up. I have worked with civilians, civil servants, foreign nationals, young soldiers and the old and the bold.

I have worked in hostile environments, cushy offices, a university and with a recruiting team all over the country.

I am married (to a civilian) I have a child and a step child. I have a good standard of education and gained further qualifications whilst in the Army.

I am trained to fire weapons, but have never had to in a life or death situation.

Why, with my vast and varied experieces would you not consider me as more than just someone 'trained in using lethal force'. Do you see the green and not the person? That's a failing on your part.

Teaching is not something I want to do after I leave the Army, but if it was I would have thought my 'life experience' (which I might add, is not that unusual) would be more useful than a 22 yr old straight out of teacher training.

Oh and for what it's worth LDNMummy, I too am very offended by your generalisations.

'Oh and for what it's worth LDNMummy, I too am very offended by your generalisations.'

Just a general heads-up to all the potential new recruits...get used to the generalisations.

Thank God I live in Scotland.

As everyone has said LDN, your generalisations are bollocks quite frankly. You have no idea at all of the make up of HM Forces. My dh is currently in his third international job, working with people from 26 different nations (no diversity there then) alongside civilians who make up more than 50% of the staff where he works. The civilians are mostly early 20s in very responsible diplomatic jobs, who find working with military personnel old enough in many cases to be their parents fascinating. They manage to communicate as well; the military being married to civilians in many cases, having civilian friends, living in civilian houses, using civilian shops etc.

I have been involved with the military all my life, and am married to it, but as I am not in it, I cannot fully understand it. You by the same token do not fully understand teaching because you do not do it; you are doing it through hearsay. I can see what the military character is, but I will never fully know what dh does as he cannot tell me, the same will be true of your dp as there are some issues he will not be able to talk about except in general terms as he is breaking confidentiality if he does.

As for your interpersonal skills comment - someone in HM Forces has to be able to interact and communicate at all levels, from Royalty to a kid on the street in Afghanistan. If they don't have the interpersonal skills to relate to teenagers how the hell do they think they cope with their own? You miss the point that they are people first, who do an unusual job which comes second, to the fact they if you cut them they bleed the same as every one else.

Where does my hubby fit in.

He's well educated, very talented, and if he left the military tomorrow, he'd walk into a very, very well paid job, due to his talents and qualifications. He chose this life.

He is well spoken and polite, and probably has more qualificatiions than many people would care to shake a stick on and has never stepped foot on a council estate (nothing worng with them at all) and wouldn't know what the word deprived meant wrt his life. So dosen't fit the council estate, uneducated, no hoper stereo type, popular here.

He's never killed anyone, and guess what he can interact, he's not some killing machine

So I'm trying to figure out where the pig ignorance comes from.

So what if people from deprived backgrounds join the forces, they are making a career, better than being on the dole, doing sweet FA.

Some people are actually making themselves look rather stupid, with sweeping generalisations of something they clearly know nothing about.

emmylous - If that was aimed at me. I was saying it as I am ex military and so is my husband and most of my friends. I wouldnt say I was a 'no hoper' but have lived in bad areas and not from a very affluent background. I joined for that reason. I am not making a sweeping generalisation but I know there are loads of people like me in the military as well as loads of people who are more affluent.

Yes please, lots of fit chaps under the age of forty, looking for an older woman to guide them through the mysteries of teaching in a nurturing and caring manner.
Form an orderly queue.

No noodle it wasn't aimed at anyone, I don't really read peoples names on threads like this, I just read the shitty posts and reply in bulk.