Ex forces members as schoolteachers, (Panorama tonight?)

[GabbyLoggon]

Are they being unreasoable?

Its a government idea copied from America
(suprise, suprise)

Training ex forces members to be schoolteachers (It has always been open for them to do that.)

Is it a gimmick? The trouble is Cameron learned from Blair the art of regular publicity stunts.

So it is difficult to know what to take seriously.

What do the teaching profession think of it? "Gabby"

Oh so the Mil Head non teacher would listen to the teachers' expertise? I am not seeing a lot of evidence of a willingness to listen to our expertise on this thread.

Unfortunately the worst heads aren't crap teachers, they're excellent teachers with no people skills who insist that the way they do it is best and impose that method on everyone in every situation and won't listen to reason.

The ideal, being good teachers with sound business sense and people management skills, isn't always attainable so how can we work with what we have? Business knows the value of external consultancy and not having like manage like but it's not an exclusive concept.

Terrificteens most of this thread is teachers fighting teachers....

Snap - I don't think that you can be an excellent teacher with no people skills. Can you explain what you mean?

I'm not fighting anyone! I am just debating an interesting subject.

Snap I don't think they do it's the same in any business.

My dp writes computer code,whenever he gets a manager who can't cut code it's a total,utter disaster. The managers adhere to budgets and time frames,they have to ,they don't have the knowledge to go into meetings and say correct time frames,possibilities etc so consistently there are problems.

My dps best managers are the ones who are fantastic at writing computer code themselves the ones who can say you won't be able to do that,it's unrealistic or this would work better.

It's exactly the same in teaching.

HT's do employ someone to deal with the finances - they are called Bursars.

In one school I worked in the HT was actually the exec head. She was rarely there, was normally finding funding for new buildings, debtaing legislation etc etc. She had two very good Deputies, one in charge of curriculum and one in charge of the day to day of the school. It worked very well.

She had a Doctorate in Education and was very good, but was very much a manager.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is prefereable to have just good management skills as against good teaching skills, obviously both would be ideal but that isn't always possible. In which case a head needs to be able to manage what is actually a fairly large organisation and leave the teaching up to those who are teaching, up to date with current strategies...AFL, APP etc.

Terrificteens: a thread in a discussions forum is hardly the same as the decision making process in schools.

If a military officer in a command role does not respect of the trade experts, s/he will fail. It's a lesson learned early on. Some are, of course, learn better than others.

The question of leadership in schools goes beyond the idea of the previous career of a staff member before they joined teaching. The role surely combines leadership, management and pedagogy. The whole SMT needs to combine to ensure all are adequate.

What worries me is that there seems to be an assumption that schools would appoint a person perceived as inadequate, or adopt a model perceived as ineffective. Are appointments (and training - heads have to qualify, don't they?) procedures really unable to produce acceptable outcomes? What needs to be changed to make the system effective?

Gifted teachers IMO and IME are those with a love of their subject, who can establish a relationship with a wide variety of classes, communicate with parents and inspire good results from their pupils (and a few others but those are the most important in my book). Some people are fantastic at this but don't work well in a team of other teachers either because they lack adult leadership skills, they like a consensus approach and prefer not to take decisions or because they're convinced that their way is right if only everyone else could see it. The first type either sink or swim, they learn those leadership skills or they don't. The second sort often don't apply for promotions, which is a shame, because they're great facilitators. The third sort are the ones I'm talking about. Either they're fantastic because they're good at telling people what to do and it works because the school needs consistency combined with their approach OR they're dire, micro-managing, spending more time telling their teachers off for not following The Plan than their pupils and generally creating a lot of upset. But they're still individuals who excel in the classroom where their approach works for them.

There's also the type of headteacher who is so obsessed with their subject that they push it to the detriment of everything else but that's narrow-mindedness which is another pitfall of gifted teachers who are asked to look at the big picture without being suited to it.

Personnel management is a different set of people skills to classroom management and education skills. Some people have none of the former but the latter in spades, but really at top-level management the former is what's needed, along with (of course) a thorough knowledge of education and the issues which teachers are faced with in the classroom.

I'm sure we've all seen people promoted beyond their comfort zone.

My teachers fighting (debating with/disagreeing with) teachers was based on your comment:

'Terrificteens
Tue 01-Mar-11 11:59:21 Back to top ↑ Add message Report
Oh so the Mil Head non teacher would listen to the teachers' expertise? I am not seeing a lot of evidence of a willingness to listen to our expertise on this thread.'

Both sides of the debate have supporters with teaching expertise.

GOOD managers in any sector know that they need to listen to the people who know what they're talking about. Good management doesn't necessarily mean like managing like. In fact the worst managers are very often those who are managing people doing the job they used to do themselves and excelled at. It's very difficult for some people to accept that another person can do as good, if not a better, job a different way to that which they themselves would choose.

In other words having been there and done that isn't a prerequisite although it obviously gives you a much better grounding than just learning about it does.

Having shifted this debate from teaching to leadership, was there anything in the gov proposals about a route into headships for ex military personnel?

Not that I know of, but apparently some ridiculously high proportion of heads are retiring in the next 5 yrs do I think the leadership fast track still exists. DH's school keep going on at him about it.

terrific- there should be a route into headships for ex military.
The point raised about HTs need to be teachers and be able to teach is weak (IMO).

Take DH for example. He probably couldn't physically take apart the whole Apache and put it back together again but he has the in-depth knowledge of how every electrical and mechanical part should work and how it needs to be fixed. The mechanics who do the fixing of the whole craft however, do not understand the physics part of it, as he does, and could not decide whether it is fit to fly.

It takes different areas of expertise, which is why a HT does not necessarily need to be a teacher

An HT DOES need to be a teacher. The ones who stay out of the classroom cannot comprehend what they are asking their staff to do. All the best HTs keep on 1-2 classes per week for exactly this reason.

LeQ but equally

That must have been funny to see....

Surely as long as the HT knows what and how the teachers should be teaching, then all they need to do is make sure it's being done.

Getting rid of a load of red tape could allow schools to actually do what they need to do - educate the kids, rather than wasting resources and money employing HTs who have to be teachers.

Do you think that the director of the Golden Arches actually served burgers all day (okay, so perhaps they did but you get my point). Or that Mr Branson actually flew passenger planes??

And no, I don't mean demote current HTs; just replace with managers as they retire....unless they are HTs in failing schools in which case, change them sooner!

Tee hee! I have a sister in law who is a head teacher and sounds very similar to leQ's!

Harking back to a couple of my earlier posts, I'm concerned about the lack of faith there is in this thread about the quality control for both teacher training and headship training, and in appointments systems in schools, for producing and appointing suitable people to posts (irrespective of previous career).

But I think extensive experience in schools is important in a head, and this is (with very, very few exceptions) experience as a teacher.

All sorts of organisations sometimes have outsiders parachuted into leadership roles. It's normally very unpopular with the organisation they are joining (new head of Defence Procurement, for example).

Actually Vintage, do you remember that TV prog where top managers of various organizations spent time working a low level for their own organizations incognito? I think it was called Back to the Floor or something. They always came out with renewed respect for the job that their workers had to do.

Agreed Meditrina - I would find it quite insulting to my profession. I cannot imagine being observed teaching for my performance management by someone whose teaching skills I didn't respect.

vtc: there are "fast track" routes to headships - all you need is an NPQH and then apply and take your chances. You do not need QTS to undertake an NPQH.

yes remember the series. I watched one or two.

The psychological aspects of worker and boss were intereresting. It was another USA idea.

Secret filming would have been more revealing, if ethically dodgy

The Beeb secret filmers have not done a school yet. They did a prison years ago and the police.
Playing cricket in the corridors. "Gabby"

PS what about the mouthy teacher who as at rhe tory conference? got the push?