Ex forces members as schoolteachers, (Panorama tonight?)

[GabbyLoggon]

Are they being unreasoable?

Its a government idea copied from America
(suprise, suprise)

Training ex forces members to be schoolteachers (It has always been open for them to do that.)

Is it a gimmick? The trouble is Cameron learned from Blair the art of regular publicity stunts.

So it is difficult to know what to take seriously.

What do the teaching profession think of it? "Gabby"

So bascially then, you're now saying what we all said to start with; if ex forces are up to the job of teaching though the scheme, then that's great. If they aren't, then they won't teach.

And the ship thing- do you not think that being confined on a ship/sub for months at a time needs certain qualities? Such as self discipline, calm, the ability to get on with everyone being in such a small area etc.

You could say the same for many jobs. say if a train driver who drives the same train day in day out, suddenly decides to wants to use his degree he got 5 years ago and go and do a PGCE. would being a train driver, sitting on a train, not seeing teenagers every day etc, make him unable to do the job? Of course not! There's no method in your madness

But pigletmania that is because they are not being given the backing by parents or the government to do the necessary in terms of taking control of their classrooms and enforcing discipline. Their hands are being tied. A military approach is not what these children need, many of them will not respond well IMO. I went to a school like that as did dear partner, people carried knives and drugs and I watched my friends brother get stabbed outside the school gates while my head of year tried to stop it. And I still do not think a military style background is going to make someone more capable of dealing with this, because of the context of the issues and the fact that it is more about being able to relate to these children. That is why my DP, aside from his obvious other skills, is a good teacher. Because he can relate to these children and understand the background they are coming from and the issues surrounding them, they respect him for it because it comes through in his teaching skills. I don't think you HAVE to come from that type of background, I just think its more about ones ability to relate than discipline.

Yes LDN, it is about relating to the children. So there's no reason then not to have ex-forces personnel taking jobs as teachers.

Their military background may or may not make them better able to deal with troubled students but the characteristics displayed by many forces personnel are perfect for teaching; self discipline, tolerance of all people, no matter what their background/ethnicity etc, ability to be rational in tricky situations, fair, able to discipline, good communications, intelligent, broad knowledge base and ability to enthuse students.

Paid adults doing a job are far easier to get along with than hormone led stroppy teenagers.

No I'm not saying that Vintage far from it.

I'm saying the gov are being very naive(again),that military life doesn't make you gods gift to teaching(quite the reverse in fact),that most teachers are doing a fantastic job, the military aren't actually needed and any military employed will be just as powerless to discipline said teenagers as teachers already doing the job are.

The fact is teacher and TA jobs are being cut,there will be no jobs to apply for and I think most gov will employ teachers already doing the job anyhow. Why on earth would any governor push aside an already experienced teacher with good credentials in favour of somebody fresh out of the military and a compressed course.

The whole thing is silly Tory headline grabbing ill thoughout spin-again

I'm off to bed now.

They're not being employed as discipline machines - they are being employed as teachers.

I have two friends who have left having been serving officers and have become teachers. They are teachers first; that is their job. They used to be officers and now they'er teachers. They don't say I'm a military teacher or I'm a teacher who is an officer. People who leave the forces to become teachers will be applying to do just that; teach.

LD that an a change from government is what is needed. From the results in the US where this is not a new thing its certainly worth a try, you dont know if you dont try it, and if it works great if it doesent you have nothing to loose. It is great to have teachers from different walks of life, not just straight out of school, uni then teaching, who can bring their different lifeskills to the job too.

'people carried knives and drugs and I watched my friends brother get stabbed outside the school gates while my head of year tried to stop it.' Ah, so it's not just the military who are brutal and deal with violence then? These kids you talk about were civilians?

You are soooo blinkered - what makes you think that being ex military means that you won't understand these issues, or that you haven't come from a similar background yourself, or worked closely with those that do?

One of the great levellers in Service life is that when the shit hits the fan you watch each others backs and work as a team, and it doesn't matter what your background is, but your ability to relate to your team and work with them. It's called leadership and that's what the Services teach, and that's what will come over in schools. The military can and do relate to all sorts of people from all backgrounds and from all walks of life. What makes you think they don't?

Mila 'Also I have to say life on a ship for months,totally apart from society is isolating and completely different to handling teenagers living in a community and all the negative influences that modern teenage life entails' Nope - you are part of society on a ship; they get the news, call into port, phone home, get mail and are not isolated, far from it. Dh got far less solitude on his submarine than I did working and then going home.

You also ignore the fact that many of the ship's company will be teenagers and that the ship's company is a community, so there will be issues with peer pressure, sex, money, hopefully not drugs, theft, education, porn, behaviour and attitude just as there is in school. Many of the NCOs and Officers will also be teaching these teens their trade and welding them into a team; the only difference is that it isn't behind a desk but hands on stuff. There will also be classroom lessons for GCSEs by the schoolies, and internal boards for them to pass as well.

"You are soooo blinkered - what makes you think that being ex military means that you won't understand these issues, or that you haven't come from a similar background yourself, or worked closely with those that do?"

Scary I did not say that being ex military means you cannot relate, I was talking about the idea of ex military personell having the right skills to deal with this kind of school environment simply because of their career background as being short sighted. I was saying that being ex military does not mean you will be able to have anymore impact on these children if you cannot relate to them, the idea that military training is somehow going to make you any better at introducing good discipline is rediculous. Not all children will respond the same.

I actually said "And I still do not think a military style background is going to make someone more capable of dealing with this, because of the context of the issues and the fact that it is more about being able to relate to these children."

I never said there is no military person out there who cannot relate to these issues, I just said that a military background does not assure that you can.

"tolerance of all people, no matter what their background/ethnicity etc"

With the reports of racism and sexual descrimination as well as prejudism against homosexuality that surround the forces, I do not think they are that well trained as a whole to be tolerant.

The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society by Lt. Col. Grossman is a very good insight into how the military uses psychological conditioning and how this removes military personell from normal mental functionality.

My point with this example is to show that mental conditioning in the military is a huge part of the lifestyle and that is what worries me. It may not all be to kill but it is definitely removed from normality.

Sometimes you don't need teachers who relate. Sometimes putting a 22 yr old grad from a council estate back in that environment is a recipe for disaster. Sometimes trying 'hey I'm just like you' invites scorn, ridicule and 'you wouldn't be a teacher if you was hard enuff'.

It could conceivably be a positive advantage to be different.

As for the brainwashing...

Some ex-Forces personnel do have deep-seated problems caused by PTSD. So do some ex-nurses, police officers, train drivers and teachers. You think seeing anyone die in front of you doesn't leave a lasting effect?! However just like nurses, police officers, train drivers and teachers not every person in the military has seen someone killed before their eyes.

Rather ex military than some of the wishy washy individuals i have encountered

My BIL is ex army and also an ex teacher. I don't believe his army experience was particularly useful when he retrained, and I know that he did find leaving the forces difficult (he didn't go directly into teaching though). I'm not sure that if you met him you would particularly think he was ex military. I don't think that he had any magical skills that were remarkably different from the other teachers in the family.

Teaching is a very difficult job. I think that it should be open to people from all sorts of different backgrounds, but that training should be extensive. I certainly don't think that anyone whether industrialist, banker or military should be encouraged to go pretty much from their previous career into a classroom. I was taught by a chap who came from industry and he was a lousy teacher, had no idea of discipline and really wasn't much cop (I recall how much he hated having to nag us about uniform infractions). I had another teacher who had been a top research scientist, lovely chap, but again lousy teacher who just didn't have the right skills.

As for the idea that all these strong men are just what trouble children need I think that's very misplaced. I have a friend who taught at a special unit for many years. She was a lovely women, at first impressions perhaps rather soft, but had been incredibly effective.

My understanding from ex military friends is that there is already a fair bit of help and assistance for those leaving the services (as there should be) the problem with this scheme is that it's a bit crass, and probably not terribly good for the servicemen (and women) either if they are effectively retraining for jobs that don't exist.

Oh, and whilst I think discipline is good I think that making a six year old stand up all day for messing about a bit is appalling.

My oldest son attends the school featured in Panorama last night. It is a tough school, has a very diverse intake and all the issues that such an intake brings.

It has been difficult at times for my son, however I can say (hand on heart) that the staff at the school are very good. They all build good relationships with the boys and provide positive role models. My son actually likes all of his teachers!!! And when I've had issues with the school the staff have been very welcoming and dealt with it very proactively.

I was aware when we were going through the induction process last year that there was an active CCF, but TBH unless your son is in the CCF then the military thing doesn't really impact on school life much at all.

He certainly can't make his bed, iron or clean his shoes with military precision

"I have seen Panorama thanks,thought the secondary school was appalling "

And you can really make that judgment on the basis of a short TV programme? Tough yes, appalling no. The staff there do a great job and make a big difference to the lives of the boys there.

Grossman is American and their military training differs from ours greatly, so unless you can provide a UK study based on UK military training methods, Grossman is irrelevant.

I don't think you can even begin to argue that UK service personnel are removed from normal mental functionality. If that were the case why are they allowed to walk around and be members of society? Why are they allowed to reproduce, have charge of training others, run large budgets, drive cars, have mortgages, responsible jobs etc? You make it sound as if they should all be locked up in secure units, and quite frankly I find that insulting.

You may also like to look at the mental conditioning that your dp is receiving via his teacher training. It is there and you will undergo much the same when you do your PGCE.

'With the reports of racism and sexual descrimination as well as prejudism against homosexuality that surround the forces, I do not think they are that well trained as a whole to be tolerant. ' It's prejudice, not prejudism. The Armed Forces are very tolerant - they have to be; it's an offence not to. HM Forces are a microcosm of society so there will be some who have personal prejudices, just as there are in society. Sexism and racism - the women and ethnic minorities who have made the higher ranks give the lie to that. My dh's current boss is a Colonel (female) whom he respects and is happy to work for because she knows her stuff. HM Forces are more tolerant than certain sections of the civilian population.

The whole thrust of your posts to date is that you consider the military to be mentally disturbed, mentally conditioned to kill, and unable to relate because they (according to you) lack normal mental functionality. You also repeatedly post that they are unable to relate to people - so you are saying that they are unable rate to kids, who are people too. You choose to ignore posts from those of us who have a damn sight more experience, very close up and personal, of the military and their abilities, and some of us are also teachers, so we can see how having had a military training could be effective in some schools and some situations. As SFP points out a 22 year old cannot always relate either - and is neither old enough nor has enough of a presence to make an impact. Many of us I suspect are also considerably older than you so are viewing teaching and education now from a wider perspective than you have, as we have have been able to look at education from our schooling, our teaching in some cases, and what we see in the schools our own children attend.

For me, it's the sense of can do, not giving up, team work, leadership, positive mental attitude, wanting to achieve one's potential, setting high standards and self discipline that exemplifies the Forces and I believe that that skill set would translate well to the classroom. It's a shame that you can't see that.

Scary's had her weetabix

You put it all across so nicely scary - I tend to get rather annoyed and blurt it all out in the wrong way. However, I agree with everything you say.

I thought you were being very rational VTC. Must go and get breakfast and watch Panorama now.

Six weeks training for an army leaver with a degree? Really?

Acanthus - the Military (once again) isn't just the Army - there are also the Navy and the RAF.

They should do a PGCE and get QTS like teachers do, but afaik Teach First to attract the brightest and best into teaching was along much the same lines, so it might work.

Sorry, sorry. Forces leaver with a degree!

But six weeks? Is that really what they're suggesting? Surely they'll need more than that?

I do agree on the whole LeQueen, but you can relate with (by that bean try to empathise with, show understanding of) pupils without trying to-be 'down with the kids', mist good teachers can strike this balance and do so without resorting to being too authoritarian. I have seen many truly brilliant, inspiring young teachers who really grab the attention and imagination of their pupils, and some really dire older ones who commit death by text book daily while the kids pass notes. And vice versa obviously.

I think it is all a bit silly really, all the govt are trying to do is find work for those they will soon make redundant, those who want to teach will retrain and either be good or bad...there will be both as there are in the non-military. They won't be any inherently better or worse.

Give back authority to teachers, allow them to 'rule' their classroom etc. Then this perceived wishy washiness will die out anyway as it won't work. The ex military will have to operate under the same hand tying strictures anyway.

I would also be interested to know where all these new teaching jobs are.