... to question the split of childcare cost with XP ?

[Gster]

Should start of by saying I'm a guy. Not that I think it makes any difference here.

Split with XP recently, still trying to sort out access times and money amicably.

Although I currently give her £630pm + cost of shoes, half of DDs holiday costs, family meals out etc, I'm going to suggest I reduce it to the CSA calculation ( £350 ) and split any other DD costs 50:50 including nursery costs from September.

However, my XP, who is pretty well sorted financially with no mortgage and a hundred grand in the bank, want's me to split the childcare costs for when she's working.

She has a mothers dream job in media. Gets around £200ph and works anywhere betweene 2 - 10 hours a week. But if she has a one hour job for an hour in the morning she'll get childcare ( if granny can't do it ) in for the morning to cover.

She'd like me to pay 50% of this. Am I being unreasonable to think I should offer less than 50% of this ? She keeps telling me she's doing me a favour by looking after DD in the week and thus saving full time nursery costs.

OK, so the XP is mortgage-free with £100K in the bank, earns between between £1600 and £8000 a month before tax, and gets £630pm plus additional costs from the OP every month. We don't know anything about the OP's finances.

It seems to me that the question of who is BU depends on the OP's financial circumstances.

OP, are you strapped for cash? Is this about feeling that she's better off than you now, but still wants more money? Or could you comfortably afford this extra expense but resent it as a point of principle?

If I didnt have dc I would live on pot noodels and not bother putting the heating on, having a big house/garden ect.

I would revert to living a students life so having my dc costs me much more than 1260pm

You pay almost double the CSA.
She works minimal hours, but books more childcare than she really needs, to allow her some breathing space. Fine. But that is her choice and not for you to pay.

Negotiate. YANBU.

How do you know how much the OP earns ChippingIn? If the CSA says he needs to contribute £350 then I presume he's not on a shabby wage.

And my POV has nothing to do with the OP being a man. There was a female poster on here a while ago talking about the same thing and I said the same to her (although I was amazed at how many women think that childcare is their responsibility)

I think you should reduce the amount you give her and split the nursery cost.

She really shouldn't need that nmuch money from you for one child, it's three times what I get for two! But it is reasonable that you split the childcare cost so that you can both work.

Again, it isn't about how much the ex "needs" from the OP. It is about the OP paying an appropriate amount based on his income. Were the OP and his ex still together, the DD would have had the full benefit of both incomes, she should continue to do so now they have separated.

Originally £630 pm was my calculation based on CSA and then factoring in how much I was spending on meals out for us all. Somehow it became the base as I still ended up paying for meals and extras ( willingly ). XP always expressed dissatisfaction, and gave me the impression that still wasn't enough so I felt like I wasn't a good Dad.

Just to comment on the issue of my XP providing 'free childcare' . I do see the argument you're making honest. I suppose it is a slight bug bear about how it's always framed as doing me a 'favour'.

XP made a decision to cut back on work so as not to miss DD's early years. I agree it saves us both lots of childcare costs, but it doesn't mean I see DD any more as a result. I'd love to spend all week with DD, or even half the week, fun times and chores , but I need to work hard 5 days a week in order to make decent contributions and afford a second home for DD to stay in ( mine ) .

I haven't heard Grandma saying how much money she's saving everyone ( which of course she is ) by childminding her grandaughter. She does it because she loves spending time with DD.

As for the contributions I make. I guess it comes down to this. A childminder turns up for the morning, 4 hours, charges say £60. In that 4 hours I earn £100. My XP works 2 hours and earns £400 and then goes off to the zoo with DD.

I'm not saying I'm not going to split it 50:50, but I am interested in the opinions for and against as I don't think it's quite as black and white as it seems.

Flojo-this is obviously a higher income family and what they spend on their children will almost inevitably be above the bare minimum or even the norm. DD costs DH and I at least £1k per month because we have made decisions about school and activities based on our joint income. I wouldn't bee too impressed if we split and DH then decided to renege on the commitments he's made because we don't "need" to spend that much on a child. (That said I have a plan B in case he ever did behave in this way! Child of divorced parents and all that.)

I am with the OP here - maintenance and half other costs seem more than reasonable to me and I would never dream of asking for childcare costs too, particularly if you have already agreed to contribute to nursery costs.

Flojo - do you live in 1979?
Actually it's much better to do childcare vouchers from the dad's salary as if it is off a female's salary and she goes on mat leave again her mat leave entitlement is based on salary minus childcare vouchers.
Did that make any sense?!

No I dont live in 1979, and Maria, if your children r privately educated then if u split, ex is legally obliged to pay half costs, but childcare isn't covered under same, as its not seen as education til 3 hence free vouchers. And if u read my first message, I did say op should pay 50% of nursery fees. And bring maintenance in line. Since op ex has no mortgage and plenty of cash herself and is clearly capable of being to higher earner but chooses not to.

She considers looking after her own child a favour? OMG.

If she earns more than you then she bears more of the costs, it doesn't matter if you are male or female.

Or who has the most care, if someone earns more than the other they pay the majority of the costs.

I do suggest you go via the CSA as this would be more beneficial to you financially, then if you wanted to contribute elsewhere you could because you wanted to not because it was expected of you.

I in no way believe the OP should split the child care costs when those costs can be borne out of the mothers salary, the child care costs are there because the mother works and earns £200 an hour.

Therefore she is benefitting more from the childcare not the father who earns less.

Sorry but I am sick to death of money grabbers and this woman is one of them. What happened to being fair?

When I worked I paid childcare costs because I could work. I never had children to be paid to have them I had them because I wanted to, thus was my responsibility to provide for them not their fathers.

I understand Im alone in this but my kids, my responsibility.

OP you are being taken for a ride.

CSA calculation says 350. Pay that. All the rest you should use to ensure you and your dd have the best possible environment and time that you have with her.

I am assuming you are the NRP. Well, as how much the RP earns is irrelevant to any CSA calc then what she spends it on is upto her.

Ignore the financial situation she is in, walk away, move on. However, pay what is right - and that is what the CSA calculation is for. Also make sure you take account of nights with you.

The maintenance is to provide solely for your DD, heat, light, gas,food, water, roof, clothes etc. How that money is spent is down to the RP to decide, if she decides to earn more by working and incurs childcare costs that is entirely her look out. Any maintenance needs to be separate from spousal maintenance (which is where various incomes / savings come into play)

Remember you retain parental responsibility - exercise it. It does not however mean handing over buckets of cash for spurious purposes.

People get easily confused and use terms that are irrelevant in English law, "custody" being a case in point. I would recommend a solicitor and be clear - separate out the personal finances from ongoing maintenance and look for a financial settlement order.

Alas too many men and women take their legal advice from Eastenders / Ally McBeal. Believe me it shows.

Oh and avoid court if you can- it will be like having sex with an elephant, painful, dangerous, likely to get you squashed and any result takes 2 years. Gets lawyers rich too.

Oh - and dont be bullied with threats of court action - most family judges - if you ever get there are generally reasonable and really have heard it all before. Greed, lies and unreasonable behaviour (like preventing access) goes down poorly with judges. If exDW is being unreasonable - it will show.

Oh and a final thought - if you go to solicitor ask about collaborative family law dispute resolution. If they look blank get another brief. Get a good one - take their advice. Seriously. AIBU is about as far a place as it is possible to get from giving reasoned, well founded advice!

I am a bit confused by the whole thing to be honest, but are there not guidelines for this? If there are I would follow them plus anything you want to buy your child obviously.

I thought the the person who the child lives with full time had to pay for any childcare if they wanted to work. And if they chose to do that they couldn't expect any more money from the other parent? I thought that was standard.

Soloooooooovely

Yup - AFAIK you are right.

You keep paying over the odds =

Put the money into an account and take DD on fabulous holidays, ensure she is well shod and looked after and also use it to ensure you have a decent roof over your head. She wont want to visit a dad who lives in a box in the doorway of the local sketchleys.

LadyBiscuit because if he was earning £200 ph as his ex can his CSA would be more than £350 pm.

I presume your second point wasn't aimed at me.

Gster - you really are being taken for a ride.

Why are you all going for meals out? Are you trying to get back together?

It sounds like she has you wrapped around her little finger.

Why not suggest a 50/50 parenting split and each pay any childcare costs you have on 'your' days? If DD is going to be in childcare anyway there's no reason why you couldn't do this and you would see more of DD.

Else pay the amount the CSA dictates then anything else you pay is your choice, but things for DD or make your place & time with her better... your ex can easily earn a lot of additional money if she wants to - why should you pay for childcare so she can do that?

It is not the same situation as mothers who don't have that 'quick fix'. She is, as others have said, being money grabbing and it's not pretty.

No, the childcare costs are there because both parents want to work, not just because the OP's ex wants to work. They are both benefitting from the childcare because without it neither the ex or the OP could work the hours they do now. And yes, the ex is doing the OP a favour in terms of childcare because she has reduced her hours to reduce the hours your DD is in childcare for. The fact that she earns £200p/h is actually the reason she probably could reduce her hours. Not everyone might be lucky enough to be in that position - you included OP. I'm sure if you could you would reduce your hours also.

Yes the ex may be a money grabber but it really grips my shit when it's suggested that it's a mother's responsibility to sort out childcare as if she should feel lucky to go out to work once children come along. Working on the basis that it was a joint decision between the OP and his now ex wife to have children it should still be a joint responsibility to fund and raise their child.

And I speak from experience, I am seperated from DD's dad and because I earn more than him by some way I don't accept maintenance for her and I have always paid all of the childcare for her. But that was because it was a fair split of the household bills with me earning more.

Sorry if I appear to speak out of turn OP but it seems you still bear some grievances towards your ex. While that is still the case I suggest you go down the formal route of the CSA as it will then be out of both your hands to decide how much you pay. While you still resent your ex for taking your money it's best if it is sorted out by an outside agency.

I'm going to butt out of this now because I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to CSA but I find it really odd that some people are saying that £350 is far too much when they survive on a lot less. CSA is not income support - it's not a flat rate for everyone and, as TheGrumpaLump said, it's based on the NRP's income. I also find the whole premise that if the RP is wealthy exonerates the NRP from paying his fair share, pretty distasteful.

It was the OP's choice to support his DD to the tune of £630 a month presumably - or did his ex put a gun to his head?

Sorry, just to clarify - I didn't mean that you should just be handing over all your money - FWIW I think she's taking the piss. Meals out? WTF? You are seperated aren't you? You need this to be assessed fairly and I don't think you or your exW can do that with the emotions involved.

Also I am assuming you have 50/50 residency in place and in which case a 50/50 split of childcare costs would be fair. If you don't, I don't think a 50/50 split of childcare costs wouldn't be very fair IMO

It isnt the woman's job to sort and pay for childcare, it is the RP. If the RP is going to work, the gym or whatever, the cost of childcare falls on the RP.

The childcare cost exists because the RP wishes to work. As an entire and wholly separate corporeal body that is upto them. If they go out and chose to lock the door on the way to work, should the NRP pay for locks?

The NRP pays childmaintenance, not RP maintenance. How the RP uses their time is their responsibility.

idid If you have a seperate arrangement that works for you and your ex - great. But it isnt compulsory - and if the OP needs to sort something out, then start at the compulsory and work up.

As i said - get a good brief and listen to their advice.

I think paying for meals out for a child that you're presumably not invited to and holidays that you don't go on is ridiculous. Without knowing your financial situation I really don't know how much you should be contributing a month, but I don't think it should include fun extras.

Ididthis you voluntarily chose not to take money for your DC because you earn more than your ex (fine & nice) so, the OP finds himself in your ex's place (earning less than his ex) - why are you suggesting he pays more than he's legally obliged to? - I'm confused. It is not up to the mother it is up to the residential parent^ to sort out childcare. Now having read your second post I'm even more confused about what your first post was saying

However, I do agree if the parents earnings are similar, it is fair to share the costs of childcare, however, it's not a legal obligation.

CSA/Childcare/tons of other issues - need sorting out (for the whole of the country, not just the OP!).

Ladybiscuit the whole point of the discussion is 'what is a fair share'. No one is saying he shouldn't pay his fair share - including the OP!

The OP's ex chose to reduce her hours to be home with her DD - not to cut back on childcare costs. Now she wants to earn £200 an hour, why should the OP pay for her to gain considerably more out of this than he does? He is not legally obliged to pay this and considering the difference between what the two of them earn, she should not be asking for him to cover childcare costs.

First, thanks again for the replies. I think it's obvious it's a contentious issue, one which I and my XP will need to sort out. But it's clearly not as clear cut as it first seems.

I want to do the 'right thing' for everybody, but without being taken for a ride. The CSA calculation isn't an issue as I'm perfectly happy to pay this towards my daughters costs. The question is what else should I offer to pay for whilst also trying to create a nice environment for DD for when she stays with me.

For the record, we are currently trying not to suddenly introduce sudden change for the sake of DD. We'd hope to remain amicable and show DD that we can all go out together. I'm not trying to get back together with the XP. Just don't want to upset DD.

The residency isn't 50:50 . I've proposed I have every other w/e + an afternoon in the week + holidays, and would hope to take some days off to help XP go and work. I'd like DD more, but I realize this would leave XP doing the week, and as the cliche goes me having all the 'funtime'. In the interests of fairness and compromise. I think I'm being quite reasonable.