Evacuation from Libya

[sweetgilly]

AIBU to expect those individuals who accept high tax free salaried positions in hostile environments, to then meet the costs of evacuation should the need arise. Why should the British tax payer meet the costs?

And you use oil products from a brutal regime.

I pay tax at the end of the year on my international earnings, so I suspect that these people do as well.

OP, I know it's been pointed out before on this thread, but I think it's worth saying it again: all governments are running rescue operations, even much poorer ones than the British one. That is because it is a government's duty to assist its citizens, especially in a crisis situation.

As someone else said, if you don't have access to a UK rescue flight, you can board on one run by a different EU member state. Even Ukraine had a mission yesterday rescuing not only Ukrainian citizens, but Polish and Russian as well.

What do you suggest should happen then? Ukrainian government invoices Polish government and then the Polish government invoices those people who earn more than a set amount? I suspect you never found yourself in a crisis situation, otherwise you would realise you cannot insure against war.

I don't pay tax here in Qatar. I also do not use the NHS, welfare benefits, claim family allowance.
Saying that we should not be entitled to UK protection is almost as ignorant as saying that people who don't work and pay tax should not be entitled to medical treatment.

Just for the record though, we don't pay any tax at all on our earnings. I refuse to use the NHS when we are on holiday in the UK although trying to get a private GP appointment is almost impossible.

YABU.

We have a friend running a logistics/catering operation in Lybia. He is trying to evacuate 70 staff some of which are in desert camps.
These staff are not at all on extravagant packages and their families are very anxious to see them home and safe.

No company can do it on their own, they are currently scrambling to keep everyone safe and can use all the help the government can offer to get them out of there.

GothAnneGeddes - not all people choose to go there as such. My DH has a job which does involve international travel, mainly to power stations in Europe. He knew this when he took the job. Every now and then his company might get a contract a bit out of the ordinary like the 3 or 4 times (in 15 years) that he's been to Libya. He can't say to his boss that he doesn't fancy that job and won't be going. He'd get sacked if he did.

Shame to see so many insults being thrown around when I for one have learnt a lot from this thread. I think it doesn't help that the expats getting the coverage on the tv and in the papers are the ones moaning about the govt have come up short in helping them. To me, sitting in cash strapped Britain reading about cuts in every service, and knowing how hard foreign office staff and others will be working to get them out, it comes across as pretty ungrateful.

Gosh, how horrible some of you are! Why do we need a cat fight over pay, degrees, our armed forces and tax free salaries? There are people in danger through no fault of their own in Libya and our govt & armed forces are trying to help. Good! Those people ARE paying for repatriation to the uk (or any safe country), many of them ARE teachers or aid workers and most of them DO pay taxes. They deserve our help not our scorn. Shame on some of you!

Agree gig.

When the media show the whingers, it gives the impression that those being rescued are all ungrateful, when the reality is quite different.

Those talking about expats with huge salaries have no idea.

Many of those working in Libya will be on temporary contract out there, employed by a UK company and there for several weeks or months at a time. They will be paying tax and NI contributions - not that it makes a difference.

Libya is not Dubai or Singapore where the companies have huge offices with lots of expat staff.

There's also the big issue of hostages at which point the government would have to get involved. When countries are in chaos there's a much higher chance of hostage taking/ransom demands, so getting people out asap makes sense on many levels.

In a time of extreme cuts I don't think the British taxpayer can afford to just send off warships willy nilly to rescue people in situations they put themselves in without any contribution.

It's heartening to see that most people here don't feel the same way.

I think you live in a deluded bubble where you think all people in Libya are rich tax dodging, high salaried ex-pats. In reality most are probably just like you or I. Ie. they earn a decent amount but work hard for it.

And how on earth did they "put themselves" into this situation? Libya has been stable for decades. Like I said before, I was in Egypt the week before it kicked off and there was no clue at all.

Plus I didn't realise the slaughter happening over there now counts as "willy nilly".

So where do you draw the line when it comes to expecting the government to protect you? Only based on if you've contributed to tax? Well in that case the poor and tourists are fucked in this country aren't they? I guess Barack Obama better not come next month to visit us then. As someone who's never contributed to our taxes, he won't be entitled to police protection eh? And Alan Sugar, he's clearly rich so should be invoiced for police attendance if he went out one night and "put himself" into a situation whereby he got mugged. He can afford it. After all, we've extreme cuts now. We can't afford to waste police resources on someone who can pay for his own protection.

And how do you calculate "contribution" anyway? Lets say for arguments sake the cost of the ship being sent is £1million and they rescue 5 people. Do you divide it by 5? Or do you look at their income and divvy it up? Or is token contribution ok? Say a tenner?

Do you see how bizarre your logic is yet?

There is a lot of backbiting when one poster disagrees with another on this thread. I would like to remind people that everyone is entitled to their opinion if it is backed with evidence, equally everyone else is entitled to disagree without resorting to name calliung and hair pulling - this is not the fourth form playground.

1. My understanding is that a commercialo charter flight was arranged by the govt but the aircrews refused to fly to Libya so military personnel and equipment had to be used (info from colleages who work at the airport)
2. No insurance or slush fund is going to cover the above situation and therefore National governments have a duty to step in and rescue their citizens.
3. Companies and workers who live in countries that may be unstable (I accept Tunisia was a surprise but Libya has been a ticking timebomb for years) should be more prepared. On the news I have seen intelligent literate British evacuees with suitcases (so clearly not had to dash to the airport in the clothes thay stand up in) but no food,water, blankets, pillows etc. Surely it is common sense to think "I will have a long wait and it is unlikely that the heating will be serviced, the cleaners will be round and the airport cafe will be fully functioning therefore I need to be prepared"

Niceguy2 - It was obvious what was going to happen in Egypt. It was all over Twitter exactly when the protests were going to start and there had been growing dissatisfaction in the country for a long time, especially since the murder of Khaled Said.

Really Goth? Because I was there, not on holiday but working alongside the locals and walking around too. I didnt see any signs a revolution was going to happen.

And if it's so obvious, which country will be next according to the Twittersphere??

DH's colleague is Egyptian and was on the phone to his family constantly during the protests there. He was very relaxed about it and said that relatives in Cairo had said that it was not nearly as bad as it appeared on TV.

I do think that it was foreseeable that things would escalate in Libya and in other Arab countries. Once Tunisia and Egypt fell, it was clear that the unrest would spread and the leaders of other countries faced the decision what to do: accept that their time is running out or crack down hard on the protests.

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread - but FWIW companies that need people to work abroad, e.g. oil companies, DO take out insurance against this sort of thing happening. It's a fairly standard requirement.

There are specialist companies that deal with these sorts of situations, and worse, and have the facilities to get people to safety. Sometimes that can mean offering local 'fixers' back-handers to get hold of a jeep to transport people. They do however work with the FCO (and often advise the FCO on local situations), and if they can't get people out immediately it's too risky.

Usually the UK government provided flight will have its costs reimbursed by the insurance company, so no-one need worry their pretty little heads that their taxes are being wasted unecessarily.

Niceguy2 - Protests planned in Iraq and Jordan today. I think if Gaddafi falls then more protests will come.

Aside from that, Egypt really was a long time coming.

geezakiss

Erm...92 interviews. He's doing something wrong.

Of course they need to be brought home but I don't see why it's government's responsibility to arrange for and pay to bring home individuals who have chosen of their own free will to live under a brutal regime. They presumably moved there for the huge tax free salaries. They're not tax payers in any country at the time but they want to be rescued at tax payers expense.

Even before the uprising Libya was hardly the safest country to live in and they did so at their own peril.

I'm not saying they should be left but I don't know why the government has come under such intense criticism for not getting them out, particularly in the case of oil workers. IMO it ought to be the responsibility of the employers to get them out. The oil companies could afford to charter a fleet of 747's to fly in and bring them all home and pay whatever extortionate charges Libya wants for landing there.

Let the responsibility fall on the employers, they can well afford to pay to bring their staff home.

geezakiss Sat 26-Feb-11 04:52:02
Sweetgilly, 92 interviews or not, he has probably done more for this country

Remind me again. What exactly has he done for this country?

OP you clearly know very little about evacuations, expats vs contract workers and their pay arrangements, the realities of getting out of a country which is falling to pieces and insurance.

What about the tourists, anyway? Are we allowed to rescue those?

geeza :( for your DH - caught between a rock and a hard place. Does he have any access to funding for retraining/upskilling or has all that been cut?