Could this DC be indicating DV?

[helpfulparenting]

HI, I've been here for a year but have namechanged for this.

I am really unsure what to do and am looking for opinions and advice.

My friend has 2 DC's under 8 yo. She works F/T as does her DH. He has always been charming and a very good Dad from what I've seen.

Her DC's are pretty disrespectful of her, younger one especially, and tantrum on NO, or when expectations of behavior are placed on them. They also can't deal with the thought someone feels badly of them. EG they can/will be mean/snatch but always project it onto the other child. EG if asked to say sorry, other child never says sorry, always hurts them etc folowed by major breakdown which detracts from orignal problem. Or do not tidy up as other child never does at theirs/ they didn't make the mess etc They are usually not forced or all hell breaks loose.

My friend and I parent differently and mainly this isn't a problem. I have learnt aswell be confident in my own parenting and when they are loudly dissing another child, including DS, that is more their insecurity than the other child being at fault.

Friend is often very tired and tearful and on the occasions her DC's have made her cry they seem quite proud of this.

Like the rest of us she will teach her DC's things to say in situations (mainly childhood arguments) but the difference is she absolves them of blame.

Because of the reasons above I chose situations where and when we meet and often engineer situations where her DC's have no expectations placed upon them. Yes I know this doesn't help but I love my friend and hate seeing her struggle.

Her youngest has also developed extreme anxiety, although I think much of it is behaviour and is attending a nurture type group at school, apparently though she won't 'open up'.

SO: the other day I had invited them over for dinner and did a buffet to be ate on a picnic mat in lounge so there was no pressure, and not really much the DC's could/ couldn't do to cause tension.

As we were eating the youngest started holding her head in her hands saying 'This is what Daddy does to mummy, he's going to put her head through the wall, and Mummy cried'. My friend just said 'Oh don't be so silly'. Her discomfort made me feel that way and I didn't feel I could bring it up again with the DC's in the same building.

Now I can't help wondering

1. How a 5yo would be able make this up
2. Igf made up - Why?
3. Could the disrespect and friends real low confidence be becuase there is some level of DV going on - ie DC's are copying bevaviour.

There is lots more but to keep this anon I have given as much detail with as little ID info as I can.

Please Help Me.

This is not a cop out. Have you any idea how difficult this is? I have a families future in my hands. I could destoy it, and destroy a friendship that my friend needs right now.

I will speak to the school, anon, when it is open next week.

Its the extreme anxiety, anger, night terrors that her DC2 is suffereing from that I think she should get her reffered to CAMHS for. Up until this comment the other day I never ever thought it could be because of DV. It may not be but surely they are the professionals who may extract this information? I thought it was because her DC2 regualary tells her she hates her and wishes she'd die that in fact she was worrying it may happen.

I would do nothing, did WA tell you to involve yourself further? An abusive partner could use this sort of situation of involving the school etc, to manipulate things to make the Mother look to blame, keep out of it, do as WA advise, just be a supportive friend.

the youngest started holding her head in her hands saying 'This is what Daddy does to mummy, he's going to put her head through the wall, and Mummy cried'

I would take that totally seriously. Childrens disclosures are usually made while playing or doing something else and they are very rarely (like- almost never) untrue.

this is a child protection issue

children usually disclose abuse and act out what they see during play art etc

these children could be at risk, this is a very real fact
what play would end up with mummy crying?

how would a child make up this type of play

please do not be confused by the thought that you are protecting anyone
you may simply be enabling an abuser by continuing a circle of silence and secrecy

The Mother, your friend, may think that it is not DV, OP she may say her parents are wonderful and they may show to be wonderfull, the public display sounds similar to the feelings she has towards her DP! Need I say more? OP's friend may think what is going on in her family is normal, you are wasting your time trying to fix a problem be it DV or SN in the child, it has to come from the people themselves!

SS would have a hard job proving anything with the situation as it is!

mummiehunnie
two posts in a row that make no sense

Rannaldini, then I am sorry for you that my posts don't make sense to you!

The child wishes her mother dead not herself. I do think there may be some SN, actually maybe more a mental health issue with DC2, hence my suggestion for GP and CAMHS referral. I can't force her though.

I'll do as WA has said, they are the experts. MummieHunnie they have said not to ask too many questions, more observe and listen. They also advised me not to try and read too much into other things I hear/see. They said if things carry on as normal I'm more likely to notice comments, changes in story over events like I have before and build an even bigger picture of the situation. I gave them more info than posted here as more anon on phone.

They have advised me to ring back anytime. Basically they can support me to support her and if it turns out to be DV they can help her if she wants it.

This

ValiumSandwich
^Having been in a violent relationship I think that the only person I would have 'taken' this from (alerting the school, gp, social services) would have been somebody who was genuinely prepared to put me and my kids up until we sorted out something else, how ever long it took.

Anybody else I would have just thought, they don't get it, I've nowhere to go and no money when I get there, and I would have been angry, and very, very, very ashamed^

I was also in a DV situation until DS (with Aspergers) was 3. As far as I knew it was hidden, was only after we split up that the neighbours mentioned they could hear him shouting and me screaming through the walls.
At the time I didn't have friends, wasn't allowed. My dad was similar and now looking back I think WTF but at the time I genuinely thought it was 'normal'.

I can't offer any really constructive advice as one day I was watching my 15 year old sister pushing DS on his swing while not screaming when he was hitting me, because I didn't want to frighten them. Just thought 'what if he did that to them?' I was 20 and kicked him out. Much easier than I ever thought!

I'm lucky that my son doesn't remember his dad, as he only saw him sporadically for a year after.

If it is DV, just having you there will help so much helpfulparenting, and the more time the children spend with you the more they will trust you and be able to tell you things. Encouraging them to trust you is a brilliant idea.

I think if someone had helped me actualise it earlier I would have been more willing earlier. One day she will thank you.
Good luck

PLEASE do not take your concerns

to 'school'
I've seen this on several threads where abuse is suspected by the OP/posters. 'School' can do no more than you can - your worries are Third Party Information under the Children Act -and not admissable evidence in Safeguarding procedures.

Apologies for the bizarre post above. My laptop is acting up.

IMO you need to speak in confidence to the NSPCC -as soon as possible - about your concerns regarding these children. The NSPCC have statutory powers to protect children [like SSD & the police] and give excellent, clear advice as how to proceed. Or take the matter off yr shoulders.

It's clearly a very complicated and worrying situation - with many unknowns. Probably best not to involve yourself with too many agencies, as you're likely to get conficting advice.

PS Night terrors are quite normal in 4-5 yo children. It's developmental and not a sign of emotional distress or abuse. More upsetting for parents than the child. Generally stop naturally as sleep pattern matures. Or easily treated by HV or GP. Not CAMHS!

Well done for going to WA. I would follow their advice as they are the experts.

I totally agree that you have done the right thing in going to women's aid and NOT school, the school are not the experts, women's aid are. I suggest ignoring the poster who constantly suggests you go against the advice of women's aid and telling the school/possibly alienating your friend who may really need you, and take the advice of the experts.

Well done for speaking to WA, I feel their advice is spot on. As I said in previous posts just be there for her, if she trusts you and there are problems she will open up to you.
If it is DV and she decides to leave her DH, it will be at a time when she feels able to have the strength to cope with the fallout.

Don't discount the effect that a child with behavioural problems (especially if undiagnosed) can have on a family. It can be physically and mentally wearing, so you are at a point where you are unable to discipline your children and cope with life generally.
Your friend obviously has problems whether they be down to DV or behavioural problems with her children.

She is lucky to have a caring friend like yourself.

great advice re the NSPCC

would you feel comfortable doing that OP?

please try to keep in mind that the children need your sympathy and help more than your friend
if this is dv she is clearly not protecting them from it

can't stand how we all try to ignore this element of dv