Could this DC be indicating DV?

[helpfulparenting]

HI, I've been here for a year but have namechanged for this.

I am really unsure what to do and am looking for opinions and advice.

My friend has 2 DC's under 8 yo. She works F/T as does her DH. He has always been charming and a very good Dad from what I've seen.

Her DC's are pretty disrespectful of her, younger one especially, and tantrum on NO, or when expectations of behavior are placed on them. They also can't deal with the thought someone feels badly of them. EG they can/will be mean/snatch but always project it onto the other child. EG if asked to say sorry, other child never says sorry, always hurts them etc folowed by major breakdown which detracts from orignal problem. Or do not tidy up as other child never does at theirs/ they didn't make the mess etc They are usually not forced or all hell breaks loose.

My friend and I parent differently and mainly this isn't a problem. I have learnt aswell be confident in my own parenting and when they are loudly dissing another child, including DS, that is more their insecurity than the other child being at fault.

Friend is often very tired and tearful and on the occasions her DC's have made her cry they seem quite proud of this.

Like the rest of us she will teach her DC's things to say in situations (mainly childhood arguments) but the difference is she absolves them of blame.

Because of the reasons above I chose situations where and when we meet and often engineer situations where her DC's have no expectations placed upon them. Yes I know this doesn't help but I love my friend and hate seeing her struggle.

Her youngest has also developed extreme anxiety, although I think much of it is behaviour and is attending a nurture type group at school, apparently though she won't 'open up'.

SO: the other day I had invited them over for dinner and did a buffet to be ate on a picnic mat in lounge so there was no pressure, and not really much the DC's could/ couldn't do to cause tension.

As we were eating the youngest started holding her head in her hands saying 'This is what Daddy does to mummy, he's going to put her head through the wall, and Mummy cried'. My friend just said 'Oh don't be so silly'. Her discomfort made me feel that way and I didn't feel I could bring it up again with the DC's in the same building.

Now I can't help wondering

1. How a 5yo would be able make this up
2. Igf made up - Why?
3. Could the disrespect and friends real low confidence be becuase there is some level of DV going on - ie DC's are copying bevaviour.

There is lots more but to keep this anon I have given as much detail with as little ID info as I can.

Please Help Me.

Rannaldini, speaking from a personal perspective. If a friend of mine had gone behind my back to SS and reported me, I would have felt utterly isolated. I would have felt that no way could I confide anything in that friend. It may have made the situation worse if my partner had found out about it too.

Also, if there is no evidence of any violence, involving SS is still going to wreck a friendship.

The first option has to be to talk to the woman and see if there is anything you can do to help.

I second Womensaid first, sorry just read that.

Rannaldini speaks sense.

This is about the children first and foremost- difficult as she is your dear friend, but try to put their wellbeing first.

valium what you say makes perfect sense. I will suggest we go for a meal just the 2 of us sometime and let her know during talking that I am always there for her etc. Not mention what was siad but make it clear anything she needs, she'll find it from me.

Her DC's are extremely violent towards each other too, although will defend each other to the death if 1 disagrees with DS.

I really really do not want to make this situation any worse, or worse still, do the wrong thing and her not let me be a friend when she may well need me the most.

I could be wrong. All the information I put about her DC's behaviour situation could simply be that, a lack of disapline, but added together with the info not posted here and what the youngest DC said - it builds a bigger, and more serious situation.

Can you quietly monitor the situation, and see if anything else 'odd' happens? Meanwhile, just remind your friend casually of how much you care about her and that she knows you'd always be there for her, but without saying anything obvious. Even if DV is going on, she sounds a looooong way away from wanting out.

Poor you, what a worrying situation :(

Incidentally, my DS1 (then aged 4) told everyone at school that his dad was in prison after we split up. No idea why, I don't think he knew either. His dad certainly wasn't a 'bad' man, we just grew apart. So kids do come out with weird & untrue stuff occasionally. It may have been a one-off, maybe something she'd seen on TV even. Or not, but you may not find out for sure, or for a very long time.

I may add, I do not believe the DC's are at any risk. They are extreme Daddys DC's, always want him when disaplined, always cuddling him etc.

The situation I see is not the one suggested the other day by her DC2.

x post helpful :)

Him outwardly looking like a good father and husband, tick!

Her allowing people including her children to treat her like crap, tick!

I think ring women's aid and they will tell you what to do for the best, please come back and let us know what you have been advised.

children are not possessions but when we mention dv suddenly we forget that

it all becomes about the woman and not the children who are without choice and without ability to end a horrible situation

she has a choice
she choses to stay.
for whatever reason she choses to stay

there are benefits and shelters and rented accommodation and family and friends and a million other things out there

i don't care if she is embarrassed or unhappy
i do care that the children are living in a situation where they think violence is normal in a family situation
where violence toward women is normal
where trust is broken every time this occurs

i don't care about how embarrassed she might feel
tell someone

Your mates dh, sounds like my emotionally abusive exh, they are very carefull to choose a woman who will look up to them and put up with crap and not realise they are being abused, along with making sure they come across as being a wonderfull husband and father in public! I bet her family of origin was not a happy stable situation either.

talk to womensaid, they should be able to advise you on what is likely to be most helpful to your friend

Thanks, Mummyhunnie, womans aid seems a good idea. I don't have to them give her details, just get advice. Maybe even get some useful information for her.

I even considered taking the wuss way out and giving her the mags of supermarket offers, you know the freebie ones and having a DV leaflet accidently and unbeknown to me in the pile. [big fucking wuss emotion]

Like I say, I don't see it and really can't imagine it happening. I don't to cause trouble where there is none, but do not want to ignore it when there is something I can do. Even just being a shoulder in the know to cry on.

Helpful, they may advise you to do NOTHING!

They might be. But they also sound a bit like my DS, who has SN. People have jumped to all sorts of conclusions in the past (including poor parenting and abuse) and it was extremely hurtful and unhelpful.

No friends family of origin are great. Very happy stable household, live very close to her M and D now, talk all the time. Her parents are lovely, honest and hardworking. Of that much I am sure.

Popping out now for an hour. I'll pop back on when I return.

sorry to hear that croc, but please be assured thats exactly what I don't want to do, hence seeking advice.

I actually sincerely hope it was just a comment by a 5yo.

Mummiehunnie, not all women who end up in abusive relationships had awful parents.

There are other reasons to end up with a low self-esteem. I didn't do very well at school, My first bf turned out to be gay, I wasn't very attractive (even though my parents told me I was!) I'd been made redundant a few times, some close friends had emigrated.... then finally I met somebody I liked and then......... he dumped me with a brutal character assassination. It was on the back of that succession of events that I ended up with an abusive man.

You cannot interfere she will not thank you for it, any "breakup" has to come from her realisation that she will not put up with it any longer.
Yes you can offer her Womens Aid etc but until she has made her mind up to get out there is no point, just be there for her when she gets to that point.

I get very cross with people who judge women who stay in a domestic vilent relationship it is not fair you have no conception on what is going on in the womens mind, so do not judge!

Talk to your friend.

The bad behaviour from her children could just be down to her (lack of) parenting which would doubtless leave her tired and tearful.

The comment from the child is strange but years ago apropos of nothing my 5 year old cousin regaled us with a story of how his dad kept a big stick with nails under the stairs and used it to bang him when he was naughty. The tale would no doubt have alarmed a third party and was shocking in its detail, apart from the fact that there was no cupboard under the stairs in their home

i will judge any woman who allows her children to live in violence when there is another option

in the uk there are other options

dv will affect these children and perhaps their children and perhaps their children

we should end this collusion

dv in the home is child abuse

"You cannot interfere she will not thank you for it,"

i bet her kids would.

Thanks for all your replies. It is helpful to have so many comments and viewpoints.

I especially thank those who have been through DV for speaking up, very brave and honest and very helpful to see 'what' my friend could be going through if what her DC said is true.

Nancy I too thought the behaviour and rudeness/ lack of respect was through a (lack of) parenting but I'm now seeing, and I hope not projecting it to what could be another cause.

oldwomaninashoe Thankyou ever so much for your honesty here. Your posts have really made me realise I could make the situation worse not better.
If I wade in there I could alienate her and end our friendship which will be couterproductive if and when she needs me. If I make accusations which are unfounded I could do the same damage as saying something, it being true but her not being ready to move on/ leave.
I know that by sitting back, seeking advice from womansaid, but not making a report, is in fact not going to help. But by keeping our friendship together I can be there for her if and/or when she needs me.

Its a no win situation.

I have decided that I will somehow, make a point of saying to all dc's (hers and mine) if ever they are scared, worried, or know something is happening is not right they must always tell an adult. That an adult is there to help them, but will also emphasize an adult can only help them if they are telling the truth. It will be hard to introduce but I'll find the window somehow.

sorry but it is a worse no win situation for her children

children in dv situations are never likely to tell an adult about what is going on at home

if skillfully asked by someone who is trained in doing so they can and will open up

simply saying if you are frightened tell an adult won't help at all

they are very likely screaming the place down whilst their father beats and humiliates their mother
what do you think that teaches them about going to an adult when they are frightened

what harm will speaking confidentially to someone at their school do?
i guess you don't want to do something to help the children
better to say nothing and hope that the violence as it escalates results in her eventually confiding in you

you have a duty to speak to someone

also it is VERY important that when you give them this pointless speech that you include a caveat about making sure it isn't lies

as if that isn't the first thing their parents would say anyway