Could this DC be indicating DV?

[helpfulparenting]

HI, I've been here for a year but have namechanged for this.

I am really unsure what to do and am looking for opinions and advice.

My friend has 2 DC's under 8 yo. She works F/T as does her DH. He has always been charming and a very good Dad from what I've seen.

Her DC's are pretty disrespectful of her, younger one especially, and tantrum on NO, or when expectations of behavior are placed on them. They also can't deal with the thought someone feels badly of them. EG they can/will be mean/snatch but always project it onto the other child. EG if asked to say sorry, other child never says sorry, always hurts them etc folowed by major breakdown which detracts from orignal problem. Or do not tidy up as other child never does at theirs/ they didn't make the mess etc They are usually not forced or all hell breaks loose.

My friend and I parent differently and mainly this isn't a problem. I have learnt aswell be confident in my own parenting and when they are loudly dissing another child, including DS, that is more their insecurity than the other child being at fault.

Friend is often very tired and tearful and on the occasions her DC's have made her cry they seem quite proud of this.

Like the rest of us she will teach her DC's things to say in situations (mainly childhood arguments) but the difference is she absolves them of blame.

Because of the reasons above I chose situations where and when we meet and often engineer situations where her DC's have no expectations placed upon them. Yes I know this doesn't help but I love my friend and hate seeing her struggle.

Her youngest has also developed extreme anxiety, although I think much of it is behaviour and is attending a nurture type group at school, apparently though she won't 'open up'.

SO: the other day I had invited them over for dinner and did a buffet to be ate on a picnic mat in lounge so there was no pressure, and not really much the DC's could/ couldn't do to cause tension.

As we were eating the youngest started holding her head in her hands saying 'This is what Daddy does to mummy, he's going to put her head through the wall, and Mummy cried'. My friend just said 'Oh don't be so silly'. Her discomfort made me feel that way and I didn't feel I could bring it up again with the DC's in the same building.

Now I can't help wondering

1. How a 5yo would be able make this up
2. Igf made up - Why?
3. Could the disrespect and friends real low confidence be becuase there is some level of DV going on - ie DC's are copying bevaviour.

There is lots more but to keep this anon I have given as much detail with as little ID info as I can.

Please Help Me.

It sounds like what the child said, and whatever else happened that you haven't told us (for understandable reasons) gave you a lightbulb moment about the DV. I don't think you'd have taken the time and space to post on mnet about this (let alone all the time you're giving to thinking about solutions) if you hadn't felt instinctively pretty sure that this is, indeed, DV.

I suggest you phone womens aid for advice.

I agree completely with Rannaldini. Domestic violence (even when not directed towards the children physically) is absolutely a child protection issue because of the emotional damage it causes the child.

You really need to tell the school. There will be a member of school staff who is the Child Protection Officer. They won't necessarily contact social services straight away but they will follow the appropriate child protection procedures in place for this type of situation.

The welfare and well-being of those children overrides everything else and that needs to be your first priority.

I know it is awkward for you but it is far better to say something to someone who knows the ins and outs of child protection issues and be wrong, than say nothing and be right about your suspicions.

I actually am finding it hard to imagine there is DV. BUT having heard what the child said I would be no friend not to keep my eyes and ears peeled.

The other 'events' have been explained, and they are not violence per se, but adding them and what the child said together you could have a problem. But I only say could, I would never have thought there was before the youngest DC said this.

Maryz I'm so sorry you went through all that. I am no expert but I wouldn't say these children, even the youngest have any sort of ASD. I had considered PDA with the youngest but their/her behaviour is only that way with their/her mum, my friend. I work with children who have ASD and they tend to find every social situation difficult and are not able to control and manipulate like these children can. I could be wrong though and please accept this is only my unprofessional opinion.

Ranaldini - What you are saying is perfectly true. The children do need someone to stand up for them if there is DV. I need though to be causious not to make the situation any worse. How I don't know??

Friend rang me 1/2 hr ago, my DS and her DC1 go to a club, but her DSC is down for hols so DC1 not gone. She said she was enjoying 1/2 hour peace as her DH yaken all DCs to get popcorn/DVD for family film night.

Normal family it would seem. I really hope I'm wrong and don't destoy it.

It is the sort of thing I would have said at that age. And the way my mother would have reacted. Then again, my mum wanted out but there was no WA in those days so we were stuck.

Echoing rannaldini here but DV against a mother also scars the children horribly - they don't actually have to be physically abused to suffer.

I think approaching WA is best. I know that as a child I wanted someone to do something and no one ever did. Their needs are paramount, a woman who chooses to stay with an abuser is secondary (sorry, I know that sounds harsh but children must come first)

fgs

as you don't know speak in confidence to the child protection worker at the school
they can flag and keep an eye on

what did you want from this thread?

why are you reluctant to do the right thing?

what greater indication do you need?
bruises on the children?
bruises on your friend?
a psychologists report on the children/friend?

dv does not get better
it escalates

You need to share the information you have with someone in a position of responsibility and the school are probably best placed here. I don't think keeping your eyes and ears open is enough at all.

If they are a normal, happy family, they may get a bit offended at enquiries being made but they will get over it. The parents' egos are not important in the grand scheme of things - the children's well-being is.

maryz its not that I don't believe, believe me the thought of some sort of ASD has crossed my mind. Just that seeing the DC's something doesn't ring true. I have suggested to my friend she seeks the help of CAMHS for her youngest.

Ranaldini I accept everything you are saying. I wanted this thread to give me advice - I was actually hoping everyone would tell me children say things like this all the time. But please accept I have been given conflicting advice from people, some of which have been through DV. I need to sort through the information and consider what is best for the family concerned. It is school holidays atm so have a few days before I can speak to the school.

As I said my friend is opening up to me more about what goes on when I'm not there, kids behaviour etc but I have to be so careful not to shut that door - for all concerned.

Helpful, what did WA say when you talked the issue out with them? You said earlier today that you thought ringing them was a good idea! Have you phoned them yet?

I don't think personally, WA will tell op to do anything. I think it will do op good for WA to educate her and to talk through her concerns.

If the child said this at your house she could just as easily say it again at school, or say something similar there. I don't see why your friend would have to know if you spoke to the school - if their child protection bod were alerted and kept an eye on this child, they might notice something and take it from there. I imagine school would actually need to see "evidence" at first hand before taking any action, wouldn't they? So it's not as if you would talk to the school and your friend would then find SS on her doorstep the next day.

maryz - I have the utmost respect for you but that was exactly the sort of thing my dad said to my mum (I'll smash your fucking head through this wall'). There doesn't need to actually be any physical damage either - my dad never actually hurt my mum that much but the threats are pretty horrible when you're a kid.

I do understand your concerns. But I think your situation is pretty unusual whereas common or garden DV is sadly commonplace.

I have no idea whether this one off comment means they are enduring DV or not. It is obviously enough for you to wonder, but there are a lot of other possibilities too, five year old children do say things like 'mummy, you hurt me on purpose' (mine said it today when I put her in her bedroom for time out and I certainly didn't hurt her in the slightest!) Mine have certainly walked around with a black eye (from falling I hasten to add). I am not sure you can tell from one remark, although I agree with the poster that said that one remark obviously bothered you so there may be some 'instinctive' thing going on with your thoughts. Children also say things to get a reaction, to provoke attention, to explore ideas, because things pop in their head or because they genuinely happened (e.g. mummy fell down the stairs) but have innocent explanations. I don't see how you can rule out these possibilites, tbh, as well as it raising the possibility that they are witnessing domestic violence. Again, a man being charming is not actually a sign of DV, unless you know he is very different in private, and you don't, for now.

I am not trying to dismiss this, by the way, just I would interpret this as a red flag to look for anything else, and offer help and support to the mum. I wouldn't personally report a one off remark unless I had more to go on. Perhaps you do have more to go on, and it is a very specific remark, in which case the other advice you have received is very relevant. I would also talk with my husband/other friends quite generally about your concerns (e.g. about their marriage in general) to see if others have similar worries which would give a different picture.

i have lots of knowledge of dv
i would not posting if it were otherwise

the YOUNGEST child said
holding her head in her hands saying

this is what daddy does to mummy
he's going to put her head through the wall
and mummy cried

why are you more keen to accept that this could be sn or anything else?

please read that again and again

you have an opportunity to prevent these children from witnessing this
you can do it discreetly and confidentially

make no mistake this will affect these children for their whole lives

why would you not speak to someone in the school or ss who can help them?

I have rung WA, sorry had to wait until DS soundo, not something I want him to hear me doing.

They have echoed pretty much what has been said here. Its hard to distinguish from one comment but that I do need to be extra vigilent. They have encouraged me to avoid alienating my friend through this. They directed me to their DV questionairre. I have looked and it is still 50/50.

maryz Your post about family dynamic actually makes perfect sense. You are not going against the grain either. Further up a poster, who was a victim of DV has warned me against reporting it without concrete evidence. Thankyou.

I am meeting this friend again this week, I'll have a good chat with her. I'll see what come out of it.

Thanks again everyone, you don't understand how helpful it is just to be able to talk to someone about this.

Ranaldini - this child though loves attention, she often says what she is thinking. She doesn't seem to get the consequences of it. What Maryz is saying is consider the wider picture. I can tell from her heartfelt posts she has been to hell and back and I certainly do not want to unnessecarily do that to a family.

No-one is saying do nothing, just be careful what you do to avoid doing more harm than good.

Does anyone think if I can get friend to get a CANHS referral for her youngest then maybe something will 'come out' in these sessions? I don't really know what CAMHS do.

Helpful, thanks for updating us on the advice you got from WA!

Thanks for the update and I'm so glad you called WA. Please keep posting - I would like to know what happens.

whilst doing that consider the number of children with aspergers and the number living in the fear of domestic violence

do you have any idea what living with dv can do to a child?

something in what that child said made you post on here

read what she said again

remember she is already experiencing extreme anxiety
i thought you said she wouldn't open up?

better to report anonymously and be wrong than not report
get some help and support to the family
doing nothing is just a cop out

They have told me to ring back anytime as they are a 24hr helpline. I cried and said what if there is some kind of abuse going on and I've not noticed it. The lady on the phone said it is one of the hardest things to spot and that I did the right thing by ringing them. She said it is very important for me to let my friend know I'm always there for her, whatever.

Helpful, WA are the experts, so go with their advice!

I wonder if their behaviour to her is because their Daddy is telling them that mummy is stupid etc. If he allows them and perhaps even encourages them to ignore her and play up for her then that would explain alot of their behaviour and what they say.

Also, her saying she cant manage without him etc could be because he has worn her down to the point where she is convinced she cant manage without him, especially due to the kids behaviour.

Keep an eye out, and follow the WA advice :)