to think that prisoners are people and citizens and SHOULD have the vote? And if we, as a nation, refuse to let them (illegally -hmmmmm) then WE are in the wrong?

[harpsichordcarrier]

Really, I am genuinely interested.... Why should committing a crime (ANY crime) take away your human rights?

i think if you are convicted guilt of a crime - any crime- you forfeit the right to vote. and rightly so.

i don't klnow about the legal argument regarding the treaty and our countries obligation to stick to it

so am just arguing on the OP

Criminals remove themselves from society by committing crimes. Therefore they lose the priviledges being a member of society brings. The most fundamental one being the right to vote.

except... they don't. Under the laws/conventions/rules to which this country is subject, they just don't.
We have been breaking the rules as a country.

Look we're arguing politics here not geography lol

Fair point Society, I will happily stand corrected.

So why are we bound by the ECHR then? I thought we actively chose to be a part of Europe, the EU or the EC or whatever it is. I'm crap at this stuff, and genuinely don't know.

NoSuch - so don't engage then! I like having wanky debates. It helps sharpen my mind, hear other's POV, and come to a conclusion about what I actually think.

No. I know this isn't anything to do with the EU I was just responding to the question....

What if rather than giving every prisoner the vote, we only grant it as a prisoner gets closer to their release? Then its something else they have to work towards and its a another step closer to re-engaging in society. Prisoners on short term sentences (for arguments sake lets say fewer than 4 years) could continue to vote even during incarceation.

Playing devils advocate here, but criminals DO get the vote: not every single killer or rapist or burgler etc is behind bars. Do they deserve the vote purely for evading the justice system and being too "clever" or whatever to be caught? By that logic we are only punishing criminals who are serving their time for their crimes, not the ones who are still at large and have not/will never be brought to justice?
(That got a bit convuluted there, but I hope my point came across ok!)

Oh trust me harpsichord, I understand. I just think they're wrong. And stupid.

When the rules laid down by europe contradict the ones laid down by this country then one has to take priority.

I personally think that if a person commits a crime which violates another person's human rights (murder, rape, assault for example) then they forfeit their own human rights for the duration of their sentence.

I have no problems with keeping them fed, watered, clean and warm but aside from that they should do their time and deal with it. If they don't like it they shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place.

Right I'm off - going to discuss football and tits at the pub

It is going to cost the government dearly, money, I mean...

So, the argument is this:

UK - prisoners shouldn't have the right to vote.
Prisoners - we want the right to vote.
Court in Strasbourg - well we've had a look at the Treaty that you signed, UK, and we think you are in violation of it so you are breaching the human rights of prisoners.
Prisoners - oh good can we vote then please.
UK - no because we DON'T LIKE that ruling and we disagree with it.

So, when did it become OK to ignore legal rulings we don't like?

JLC - Can I come too please? :)

herbietea Sat 19-Feb-11 22:32:31
harpsi The ECHR passed this 5 years ago. The Labour party ignored it for that time. Now it is being looked at again because the lawyers are queuing up to represent prisoners in compensation cases, so the government are worrying about being sued.

Yes, I know all that.
The argument is long long lost.

PS Am off down the pub myself now too

Sorry, but law breakers should not be eligible to be law makers, and should not have the vote. Anyway, where would they vote?

Whiskeyplease Prisoners in open establishments could apply for home leave and town visits during polling day and for all others there's always the postal vote.

So the government (any government ) break a low they signed up to over this, but people who break other laws should have their right to vote removed??

Just seems wrong...

Quite envious at all of you going to the pub - I am off to bed

I'd just give them it - as that will piss them off big time. They don't want - if we give it to them they won't be able to have fun going to court and suing for compensation - it will save us a huge amount of money in the end. Doubt many will vote even if they get it.

By committing a crime they have transgressed the rules of a civilised society, and have therefore deprived themselves of the right to vote - and I think that is just fine.

When they are sent to prison we are also depriving them of their right to go to the pub of a friday night, or have sex with their wives/girlfriends, or play with their children in the snow - and I don't see anyone whinging to the European courts about that.