to think that prisoners are people and citizens and SHOULD have the vote? And if we, as a nation, refuse to let them (illegally -hmmmmm) then WE are in the wrong?

[harpsichordcarrier]

Really, I am genuinely interested.... Why should committing a crime (ANY crime) take away your human rights?

Agree with what taintedpaint says.

When you commit a crime, you make a consious (sp!) descision to face the consequences should you be caught. If that includes losing the right to vote, then so be it.

Imo, if you take away someone elses human rights, by taking their life, their possesions, by injuring them, etc, then you can't expect to keep your rights as they were before you comitted the crime.

Food, shelter, healthcare, and a life free from harm by others are human rights. Voting is not a human right. If it were that important, sane people would not choose to give up that right because they can't be arsed to go to the polling station.

Freedom is a bigger human right than voting, but nobody's suggesting that criminals shouldn't be locked away, so why is their right to vote so important?

And scum like murderers should be treated humanely because......... ?

Because that's what being human is.
Because not all murderers are 'scum'.
Because not all prisoners are murderers!
Because we DO and SHOULD treat everyone in society humanely otherwise we are no longer civilised.
Because we must have moral standards.
Because the law, to which we are subject, says we must.

Good argument curly (and Daphne).

Yes, prisoners should have the vote. They are still citizens.

I'm really not sure where I stand on this. Having a vote is certainly a human right. But then surely is the right to freedom and that has been given up as a result of the crimes committed? There has to be consequences for crimes, no? And although I don't agree that people deserve to be treated inhumanely if they have committed a crime, not matter how bad that crime is (that drags society down to the level of the criminal), maybe being disenfrancised is a fair sacrifice for breaking the law?.

I'm actually quite surprised how unsure I feel about this, as I'm as leftie as they come!

I don't think denying some twat a vote for having no consideration for anyone else at all is treating them inhumanely.

sorry I disagree, said person has been covicted of a crime, they have chosen to go against what is sociably acceptable.
what is the point in putting someone behind bars if they are given the same (and sometimes more) opertunities as law abiding citizens?

/// @twinkytwonkBut if they have done something so bad that we as a society have 'locked them away' to punish them, why should they vote and have a say for the time they are in prison?
Surely that goes hand in hand with not engaging with the outside world?

Well the simple answer is that a court, to which we are subject, has ruled that they SHOULD.
So, why are we justified in ignoring that?
And in general elections the government is voted in for four years. The majority of prisoners in prison last May will now be out again, subject to the government WE voted in....

'Because we DO and SHOULD treat everyone in society humanely otherwise we are no longer civilised.'

exactly harpsi. I'm not prepared to let someone who commits a crime drag me down to their level (I'm pretty ambivalent about prison as punishment anyway tbh - protecting the public ok)

Give me 20 minutes with the arsehole that battered my nan for £23 and I'll show you bloody inhumane.

I'm a bit conflicted about this one. I absolutely believe that prisoners should be treated with basic respect and decency. But I am not convinced that voting is a human right, and there is a part of me that feels that it is reasonable for them to lose the right to vote when they lose their right to live freely in society.

On the other hand, if giving prisoners the right to vote actually helps with their rehabilitation, then I could be persuaded that this is a good idea.

YABU. I just really don't see the argument here.

I suppose a logical argument could be that if they do not have the good judgement not to commit a crime, then they are not fit to make a judgement about where to cast their vote. Also you could say that by blatantly disregarding the rights of fellow citizens to live free from fear, they may for a time have their own rights disregarded. I am offering these up, but flip from one side to the other on this.

Imo, if you take away someone elses human rights, by taking their life, their possesions, by injuring them, etc, then you can't expect to keep your rights as they were before you comitted the crime.

This is not really true though is it?
imprisonment IS a punishment IS ITSELF i.e. taking away someone's freedom is the penalty. It is NOT part of the punishment that all prisoners are deprived of their human rights. That isn't part of the law of this country, thank god; all prisoners are still protected and free from harm.

To suggest that prisoners 'lose their human rights' is just not proportionate or true.

But harpsi, our government, you know the one we kind of voted for, is saying that they shouldn't have the vote. It's the European court that is saying they should, and no body voted for them.

///@magicmummy- But I am not convinced that voting is a human right, and there is a part of me that feels that it is reasonable for them to lose the right to vote when they lose their right to live freely in society.

the thing is, though, whether or not you are convinced, the European Court of Human Rights IS convinced. So if you think that we, as citizens, should respect the law, then surely we should abide by that decision?

Well lucky them, protected and free from harm.

I repeat

Give me 20 minutes with the arsehole that battered my nan for £23 and I'll show you bloody inhumane.

A court has also ruled that they are not worthy of having liberty and freedom in the same way as the law-abiding majority.

Awarding prisoners the vote on the grounds that it is violating their human rights not to have it is not a very big leap from blocking them from being locked up in the first place when you think about it.

I suppose the first thought on the minds of those who commit crimes severe enough to get them locked up is not 'oh, I'd better not do this, there's a general election coming up', but it doesn't mean that they should continue to maintain rights that those not in the prison population do.

And I still persist with the point that taking away their freedom is more of a deprivation of human rights than taking away their vote is.

Harpsichordcarrier, I'm genuinely open to persuasion here, but on what grounds do you feel that the right to vote is a basic human right? I'm not convinced that it is.

imprisonment IS a punishment IS ITSELF i.e. taking away someone's freedom is the penalty. It is NOT part of the punishment that all prisoners are deprived of their human rights.

But why shouldn't it be part of the punishment that they lose their vote?

If their vote means that much to them, they won't commit the crime will they?

YY, the punishment is the loss of freedom, not the loss of the right to vote.

We don't torture or mete out the death penalty in this country, much as both still occur around the world.

I always felt it was fairly barbaric to remove the right to vote (the fact that so few people who can vote actually do, and that even less prisoners probably would if the could is another story ).

The criminal didn't act in accordance with society's code of conduct. He/she chose to flout societal norms...the right to vote is a societal code. You break the bond, you lose the privilege.

However, I do think that governmental policy has a direct effect on the prisoner - legislation over their incarcerated lives. So, a vote that leads to a particular Cabinet and policy-makers being chosen, influencing their prison life. I think to deny someone a say in that is awful.

I don't know what the cut-off point is though. I can understand more serious offences incurring the loss of a vote - or even repeat offenders for less serious crimes. However, what about a few tax dodgers or white collar criminals? I think that even if imprisoned, they should still be allowed to vote. Yes, they broke society's rules...but, really?! Like nobody ever does a bit of a fiddle at Customs every time they go on holiday? However, nobody does 'a little bit of killing every now and again'

The right to vote is a basic democratic right.