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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that prisoners are people and citizens and SHOULD have the vote? And if we, as a nation, refuse to let them (illegally -hmmmmm) then WE are in the wrong?

126 replies

harpsichordcarrier · 19/02/2011 21:39

Really, I am genuinely interested.... Why should committing a crime (ANY crime) take away your human rights?

OP posts:
JamieLeeCurtis · 19/02/2011 22:18

morely - I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, but I know what you mean. Terrible stuff on the radio about the treatment of elderly people in hospital today. And that has been going on for years

hardhatdonned · 19/02/2011 22:18

If they're aquitted they can vote on release. Whilst incarcerated they lose the right to vote. You remove yourself from society by committing a crime against it you lose the rights that are afforded to law abiding citizens.

NoSuchThingAsSociety · 19/02/2011 22:19

The views expressed on here are soooo bleeding-heart/liberal that they would stand no more than a minute of scrutiny in any bar or pub across the land.

harpsichordcarrier - it's not the law that tells us we must do this...it's an international treaty to which we signed up last century.

We can derogate (withdraw) if we wish - imagine realising that the rules of a club of which you are a member are going to force you to do something of which you disapprove...you have the choice to do so.

We all (prisoners included) have it so bloody easy in this country, we just don't know we're born...

cumfy · 19/02/2011 22:19

In practise I think it's a complete non-issue.
A vote or not, every 4-5 years for prisoners will not make a jot of difference to anything.

Politicians wish to make it appear an issue:

  1. To perpetuate the myth that politicians and voting is important.
  2. For Tory's to bash their drum, and be seen to "challenge" the EU beauracracy.
  3. To (mis)direct people's attention from important issues.

It's irrelevant.

activate · 19/02/2011 22:19

the ECHR are wrong

curlymama · 19/02/2011 22:19

It is our LEGAL OBLIGATION to comply with this ruling. Whether or not we elected these judges (and by the way we don't vote for judges in this country anyway) we are LEGALLY bound by this ruling and no-one disagrees with that.
What Cameron is suggesting is that we ignore a legal ruling. Which is different to breaking the law in what way, precisely??

I disagree that we should be legally bound by that ruling, and judging by the responses of some others on this thread, I'm not the only one.

I don't think Cameron should break the law that we are obliged to uphold, simply because I don't care enough about this issue for it to be worth the money it will cost in fines.

But what if Cameron were to decide that we are no longer part of the EU? Or we had a referendum and chose as a nation to no longer be part of the EU? Then we wouldn't be breaking any laws, we would be deciding for ourselves how to run our country.

And seeing as there are plenty of other countries out there that are doing well enough without having to do what the European bosses tell them, their rules can't be that important.

Original poster
harpsichordcarrier · 19/02/2011 22:20

//spenguin - A characteristic of being a citizen (and thus allowed to vote) is surely baed on taxes.

Yes afaik if prisoners have an income they still pay tax on it. But if an individual is not paying tax (e.g. sick, too young, too old, SAHP etc) then they are no less of a citizen ... so I am not sure that argument holds.

OP posts:
FabbyChic · 19/02/2011 22:20

OMG they live better than those on the poverty line, three square meals a day, internet access, access to education, they take lives, ruin lives and you want them to be able to vote to?

Being in prison is about having your civil liberties taken away, that includes the right to vote.

JamieLeeCurtis · 19/02/2011 22:20

The views expressed on here are soooo bleeding-heart/liberal that they would stand no more than a minute of scrutiny in any bar or pub across the land.

So? .......

magicmummy1 · 19/02/2011 22:21

"There are multiple instances of people being freed after 20+ years. If you denied them the vote, how much of an injustice was it for them?"

But if that was a valid argument, couldn't you also argue that we shouldn't put anyone in prison at all - just in case they were acquitted 20 years later?!

I consider myself to be quite a politically interested person, but I know that I'd be more aggrieved about losing my liberty for 20 years than I would be about having lost my right to vote...

hardhatdonned · 19/02/2011 22:22

Why oh why oh why are a group of people sitting in Brussells allowed to decree what happens in any single state within the European Union? Why?

The laws makers of this land decided that prisoners should, quite rightly, be denied the vote along with other losses of freedom that committing a crime brings. Who are these muppets to tell us otherwise?

JamieLeeCurtis · 19/02/2011 22:23

To expand on that, SO? - are you saying people in bars and pubs are by definition right. Or are you assuming people in bars and pubs wouldn't discuss it as we are doing ? Or that people in bars and pubs are right wing?

Original poster
harpsichordcarrier · 19/02/2011 22:23

A ruling of a court, based on a treaty to which we signed up... well I can't see how we are not bound by it.
I agree that the Tory revolt against this ruling is just posturing, and seeking to appease some pretty unpleasant views.
It isn't irrelevant though. It says a great deal about them that THIS is the fight they choose to engage in.
Not based on logic or principle at all.

OP posts:
NoSuchThingAsSociety · 19/02/2011 22:24

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the EU (Brussels etc). The ECHR is quite separate.

I'm no fan of either but I do my research at least...

JumpOnIt · 19/02/2011 22:24

Voting is not a human right IMO. On the whole we do not treat our prisoners inhumanely. Having worked in a prison, I do really believe that the rehabilitation offered is, for the most part, excellent. I really don't think that voting will go very far in connecting inmates to the outside world. Prison is far to insular a place for that to make a difference.

Arguing about miscarriages of justice in this context is a very slippery slope!

hardhatdonned · 19/02/2011 22:24

How is upholding the laws of this land posturing and upholding unpleasant views??

Original poster
harpsichordcarrier · 19/02/2011 22:25

Why oh why oh why are a group of people sitting in Brussells allowed to decree what happens in any single state within the European Union? Why?

because we ARE part of the European Union and WE ARE part of the treaty! I don't really get why this is so difficult to understand.

OP posts:
hardhatdonned · 19/02/2011 22:26

Still in Europe :o

Anyway i still stand by my views. Criminals remove themselves from society by committing crimes. Therefore they lose the priviledges being a member of society brings. The most fundamental one being the right to vote.

Original poster
harpsichordcarrier · 19/02/2011 22:26

PS you mean Strasbourg btw

OP posts:
NoSuchThingAsSociety · 19/02/2011 22:26

JamieLeeCurtis - my point is that it's just leftie mutual masturbation and pointless as any way of exploring issues from a broad range of perspectives.

JamieLeeCurtis · 19/02/2011 22:26

JumpOnIt - that's interesting to hear from someone who actually knows prisons

DaphneHeartsFred · 19/02/2011 22:26

I don't really like Dave C, but if he really has got the guts to tell the faceless ECHR to fuck off I'll be impressed.

magicmummy1 · 19/02/2011 22:26

But please can someone tell me why the right to vote is a human right?

Isn't voting a civil right rather than a human right?

hardhatdonned · 19/02/2011 22:27

Nothing is difficult to understand harpsichord i just don't agree with europe over ruling the laws of the lands of individual countries within it.

They should be there to provide guidelines not absolutes.

NoSuchThingAsSociety · 19/02/2011 22:27

harpsichordcarrier - this has nothing to do with the EU...c'mon now, basics!!