to hate it when people talk about "indie" schools

[gobehindabushfgs]

in an attempt to make it sound cool, edgy and alternative? it isn't. it's private education. it's a right-wing, ultimately selfish decision.

"indie"

Yes, the school my kids were at was racially and culturally diverse,
Manchester Grammar, however, is socially diverse.

And, UQD, you're at it again with the assumption that we're all paying to be away from something. In reality I'd say most people pay to get something rather than avoid anything.

I have been to, and taught at, both state and private schools. The only significant difference between them was that the expectations of all concerned (parents, teachers, pupils and other staff) are higher in the private sector. This higher expectation leads naturally to higher outcomes.

I also want to point out that the teacher's pay in the private sector is generally lower.

Well, expectation is not the only significant difference between state and private schools, is it? There are plenty of others. And while expectations and outcomes are undoutedly correlated, it is a stretch to say one leads to the other.

"We have parents who live in 2 bed flats in fairly grotty areas who do so to afford the fees. We have people who are discussing how far they can make mince stretch for the week. We have people who can't afford to tax their car until the end of the month, as they are struggling. Not all comfortable middle class types."

This is the real world. We are working class, we are not middle class. We do what we need to do. Why is it a crime to not want your child sink without trace? My indie school offers scholarships, significant ones, and bursaries. It allows riffraff like us to go. How is that out of touch? Because I am just ordinary? I am not poverty stricken and on the street so do I not count?

Seeker, I did answer your Q about MGS.

And seeker, do you not use the grammar system? Is it then not a little disingenuous of you to sound as though you haven't used the system to your advantage?

I live in a grammar school area. For various tedious reasons I am not in a position to move. If I could send my children to a comprehensive school, I would. But I can't. I think it is a hideous, divisive system, and I would vote for its dissolution in a heartbeat.

Iamfartacus - you are out of touch because you talk of "people living in 2 room flats in fairly grotty areas' in order to pay the fees - somehow missing the point that the vast majority of the population do this because ethey have to, not because they have chosen to spend the bulk of their income on school fees!

Not keen on "indie", or "uni" for that matter; but I don't see how using an independent school is selfish.

Of course it could be lovely if everyone could have an education of the quality for which I'm paying; but the reality is that that is an ideal and, whilst not impossible, it is unlikely to be achieved. Ceasing to send my child to an independent school would not cause any other child to have a better education. Bringing everything down to the lowest common denominator improves nothing for anyone. I have no objection to the allocation of large proportions of the tax I pay to the provision of education services from which my child will never benefit. In fact, I am positively in favour of investment in state education.

I choose independent education mostly because I can trust the school to provide a rigorous and rounded education, without regard to league tables or Government directives of any sort. I like the emphasis on courtesy. I like the high aspirations. I like not having to pretend to be religious or to cram my child for entrance exams.

If I decided to take my (hard-earned) money and spend it on luxuries instead, or even if I were to give it to charity, my child's education would suffer and no-one else's would gain.

There are plenty of respects in which I am selfish; but paying for my child's education is not one of them

I do love this idea (it gets mentioned at least once every education thread) that private schoolers are doing the rest of us plebs a great favour by taking their kids out of the equation and altruistically relieving the poor overburdened state of the need to educate them.

I hope and trust this admirable selflessness manifests itself in other aspects of their lives too.

UQD, it wasn't me who said that but, in Australia, the government encourage those that can afford it to pay and they give them a rebate to do so. Think about 30% do it.

The Aus government think that is cheaper than paying however much it costs to state educate those children.

I think that's an intersting debate. We tie school up so much with class here though that I doubt it would work.

Everyone is selfish. Where we differ is in what we choose to be selfish about. My DC are at state schools and I couldn't care less that some parents use indies or call them that.

Why pay for 'Indie' when there are perfectly good schools around.

Sacrificing great chunks of your income to pay for the education of others (even if thay are your children) is pretty selfless.

We do not earn a lot of money, you seem to think we do. We do not live in a lovely big house or go horseriding. Bursaries and scholarships are vital for many of us. There are many people who are buying houses in catchment areas for good state schools, pushing up the prices and making it impossible to get in unless you are very wealthy, or, as I was advised to do further up the thread, rent in the good school catchment area. If you have a good school to choose from, you are very fortunate. For those of us that don't, and who are not playing the system by renting in the catchment, we have few choices. What would you do? Home educate? That is my next option if we can no longer stretch to the fees. We manage term to term, as a lot of other parents do.

If you can afford school fees then you do earn a lot of money.

I agree with the OP.

It sounds revolting and is probably only used by the aspirational parents who can't actually quite afford it anyway. In the last school I taught at the rugby mums (Boden, HP Range Rover) used to run along the sidelines shouting at their boys and would complain "why aren't we winning, we are paying FEES" if the school lost, particularly against a state school. The lords and ladies (ancient Peugot 205 held together with string) would sit and chat amongst themselves with a G&T.
Yes this is gross generalisation but it is my experience, many, many years of it. I wouldn't send my children to state school but that is my choice. It is to do with confidence and self belief, not academic. I don't really care what they achieve grade wise, it all balances out in the end. I do want them, however, to be independent, proud and strong in adult life and believe they can achieve anything. Plus, not feel embarrassed for being rich.

bluenordic - actually, no, "sacrificing great chunks of your income" (aka Tax, as it is usually called, which everyone pays) is all about educating society. It's not selfless at all, not if you view education as being to the benefit of society and therefore the benefit of all.

You pay it so that, in 20 years' time when you want a qualified accountant, plumber, translator, IT person or financial adviser, there will be one available. It's not about educating your own kids or anyone else's as some kind of abstract concept.

There are degrees of selfishness.

Perhaps the most selfish are people who aren't arsed enough about their own kids do do absolutely anything they can to help them, and expect the state to do it all for them?

UQD - there was some really useful data on the free schools network site (I was gathering info against a proposed free school in our area and noticed it).

link by local authority here the inward and outward movement stats are particularly interesting especially in grammar areas.

and indeed the private numbers are very revealing - Richmond-upon-Thames's for example at primary level is astonishing.

Bloody well said pointissima.

And that respect for your views and for your selflessness in putting your child's education before luxuries/additional luxuries/a bigger house/holidays/whatever (assuming you're not extremely fortunate and can afford all of these and independent education :) ) comes from a woman with one daughter in state school and one daughter who is shortly (and sadly) to return to state education although she is currently in the independent sector but paid for by the LA.

Your children are lucky and I salute you for making the choice that you have - and sod the detractors and nay-sayers. If I could possibly, possibly afford to independently educate my children and feed them, I would too.

It is extraordinarily selfish to think 'sod the good of society, I'm looking after Number 1."