to hate it when people talk about "indie" schools

[gobehindabushfgs]

in an attempt to make it sound cool, edgy and alternative? it isn't. it's private education. it's a right-wing, ultimately selfish decision.

"indie"

very few, how many state schools offer rowing?

That's probably got more to do with proximity to suitable river than anything else (round here, some of the states do, afaik the privates don't just because of location).

So, no rowing for anyone because we don't have equal distribution of waterways!

Oh and I know at least two state educated lads who took up rowing at university.

Unfortunately some state schools are so bad, if you choose to support them, you are giving your dc a miserable childhood and poor education. Catchment areas for the best state schools have a lot less social diversity than at the indie schools around here.
Do you feel the same way about those? Would you be in favour of a "lottery" system for state school applications to make it fair?

by the way im using rowing as an example, im not a rowing freak

what i mean is the activities available at private schools, not just rowing

And actually, the smaller class size thing is a bit of a red herring too.

My ds is, for example, in a class of 30. But there are aleays at least two, often 3 and occasionally 4 adults in the room. A much better ration than many private schools.

And very small classes are not necessarily a good idea - spending all your school time with the same tiny group can be of course, be wonderful - but frequently being one of the only 4 girls in you class can be a nightmare.

I don't want to go over old ground so I'll try a different tack. It sees that when this issue is discussed, people often confuse/conflate/blur (deliberately, in some cases) two quite separate things:

(1)Their ethical or principled objection to a state-controlled education

and

(2)The availability of/ability to obtain an alternative.

It rarely seems to cross their mind that the purchasing of the alternative depends only a little bit on (1), but, practically, for most people, in great part on (2).

There are quite good arguments for there being "independent", non-centralised, specialised education in this country. And there are very good arguments for it never depending on the parent's ability to pay.

I would also reiterate (said it before but never mind) that the signal-to-noise ratio on this topic is vastly disproportionate on here. If you jumped into one of these threads at random you'd get the idea that the population was divided roughly 50-50 between those who use state education and those who know better and have "chosen" something else, as if it were a matter of those who like tea versus those who like coffee. The truth could not be much more different.

Yes, our last catchment was all white too. My DCs would have gone all through primary school in a class of all white children. Much more racial and cultural diversity at the independent school.

OP, that chip on your shoulder looks quite sad, really.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the very best education, one can afford, for ones children.
It's not selfish. (Although there's nothing wrong with selfishness, either).
It's a choice that some can and do make.
Not everyone has that choice but that doesn't make the ones that do, evil.

"Unfortunately some state schools are so bad, if you choose to support them, you are giving your dc a miserable childhood and poor education. Catchment areas for the best state schools have a lot less social diversity than at the indie schools around here."

I would really like evidence to support both these statements. Where are these schools which are so bad that children at them automatically have miserable childhoods and poor educations?

And where are all these socially diverse private schools? This is a line that is always being trotted out - and it's simply not true.

I know nationally it's something like 7%, UQD but it was more like 12% where we lived. Still a small proportion though, I agree.

There is no getting away fromn the fact that the choice only exists if you can afford to exercise it. Absolutely! However, it drives me nuts that there is this wide-spread assumption that it has to do with snobbery. That may well be true for a few but certainly not for the vast majority of parents I know.

I agree seeker. Smaller class sizes aren't necessarily an advantage.

Seeker, what about Manchester Grammar? Blind admission regardless of ability to pay. Lots of boys from moss side etc. It's a fee paying school who is socially diverse.

Who pays the fees, then, BettyDouglas?

Our local comp was a failing school on sp[ecial measures. It has in the past 18 months been taken over as an acadamy with a large injection of cash to improve the school but it doesn't change the fact that a large majority of parents who send their children there just dont care and see schooling as a form of free childcare rather than getting the best education for their children.

I could have taken a gamble and sent my youngest there but why should i? Instead i choose a faith school which no doubt will also upset the socialist element.

BettyDouglas' comment has reminded me that it is useful to see this every so often for the regional stats. Info is a couple of years old but is based on the most recent year for which I could find figures.

And where are all these socially diverse private schools?

Betty said 'racially and culturally diverse',not socially

If you live in an area with an overabundance of faith schools, the state schools unfortunately do tend to be racially and culturally homogenous. The private schools are therefore all the more attractive to affluent non-christians.

Not socially diverse (unless there's loads of full bursaries).

Private schools being socially diverse does seem to defeat what would, for a lot of their target customers, be a main selling point. "Look! Send your kids here for £5k a term and they can mix with... exactly the same kids as at the free comp up the road."

Interesting link, UQD. It looks like those are the stats for all ages, though - do you know if there is a breakdown anywhere for secondary and sixth form? I'm guessing the percentages would probably be higher for secondary.

That's one of my standard, bookmarked, trot-'em-out links - I don't have time at the moment to find what you ask but it's a fair question.

(And I should really now find a more up-to-date table but that does appear to be the last time the question was asked in Parliament).

I reckon the only truly "indie" school is Bedales.

Seriously though people may struggle to spell independent, or get bored typing it all out. "private" is shorter but sounds more exclusive in a bad way.

I would like to add another factor into the argument.

I am currently choosing between an excellent state primary and an excellent private primary.

If we go with the state primary I will not be able to work. The hours are 8:40 to 3 with no afterschool club and no holiday club. It's in a village and there are no available childminders who pick up.

If we go with the private primary there is wraparound care from 8-6 including through the holidays. I will be able to get any job I like.

Which is better for my child? Which is better for me? It's not that simple, is it.

Seeker, the school use a large proportion of the other parents' fees to support those who cannot pay. They are well known for it.

The boys sit the exam, they offer to the top say, 10% and then check who can pay and pay for those who cannot.

Fees are quite high and parents who use the school and pay know that a large % of their fees are supporting other kids.

UQD, no, that wouldn't defeat the object for me and a lot of other parents who use independent schools.

DDs school is at least as ethnically diverse as her state primary was, but obviously less socially diverse in terms of family incomes, as there are only a handful of bursaries available for each year.

When I went to the same school many years ago, it was uniformly white (ethnic profile of the city has changed in 25 years) but much more socially diverse because of the assisted places scheme - about half my friends were on assisted places, and they had parents on low incomes (factory workers, pub keepers etc).

I wish it was the same now, as I do think that learning to get on with people from different backgrounds is very important. I didn't choose to send my children to independent schools to get away from other children, but to get better academic opportunities, which are unfortunately not readily available in the state schools where I live.

My independent school had children from all over the world at it as do most of them that are any good!! How much racial diversity are you after? My best friends were from Gabon in Africa, Belgium, Hong Kong, U.S.A. and only one was English and white like me. By contrast, my sister went to the local school where everyone was white, English and from our town except for ONE Asian girl!!

Also I object to the idea they are 'selfish' - surely if one added all those private school kids suddenly back into the state sector it would collapse utterly under the weight of pupils it currently doesn't have to pay a penny to educate!

The wealthy are not a drain on the education budget - the terminally unemployed and their children probably are!

My ds was at a state school, as we never thought to do any different. Unfortunately he was bullied, the teachers chose to ignore it, he became invisible within the class and so did not learn how to write. His SN were not addressed, he was physically attacked on several occasions. He saw a paediatrician who could not get him to talk about his experience; he was so traumatised. And yes, we did speak to the school, we did everything we thought parents should do, and met a brick wall. Yes we could have left him to "tough it out" but it was destroying him.
The local LEA could not offer us anything else. Yes there are some lovely schools in the area; parents at them say "it's as good as private", which is sort of ironic. Unless you are in the very small expensive catchment, you are not coming in. Seems like that keeps the riffraff out just as well as indie schools supposedly do.
By contrast, the indie school we scrimp and save for has parents driving old bangers, parents on pushbikes, and a thriving second hand clothes store. We have parents who live in 2 bed flats in fairly grotty areas who do so to afford the fees. We have people who are discussing how far they can make mince stretch for the week. We have people who can't afford to tax their car until the end of the month, as they are struggling. Not all comfortable middle class types. And yes, the school with all white faces is the state one in the nice area.