To think that cash-for-internships shows what the Tories think about who should have opportunities

[Himalaya]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356469/Tory-backers-pay-party-2-000-buy-children-work-experience.html

Folks at tory party HQ don't think that it is a problem that access to first steps on the career ladder in jobs with influence in finance, policy, media, PR etc depend on who-you-know networks and the ability to work for free and live in London... In fact they think it's a good fundraising opportunity and have been selling off internships at top firms for 2-3K.

Tells you all you need to know, really about their views on social mobility and equality of opportunity.

sardine read please.

I did not say that. I object to a child with higher grades not getting a place because one with lower grades happened to go to a state school not private. If they get the same then the place should depend on other things - sports achievements etc perhaps, an interview - than becasue one was poorer. It's as bad as this 'old boys network' you're so against because were it a genuine meritocracy the uni place would always go to the person with higher academica achievement regardless of their background.

I don't believe in 'fair' being used in such an arbitrary fashion - I don't think it's 'fair' that i lose 40% of my income yet have private healthcare, was privately educated, my children/family similarly, I take no form of state benefit, hb, tax credits etc. I accept it because such is life but I do not consider it fair that I work 4 hours in 10 for free thereby losing a great deal of freedom (Robert Nozick... please read it, so amazing - my phd subject probably)

What sort of internship did he do fabby? £900 a week is a huge amount of money!

Good post himalaya

I agree with fabby

happiestblonde your statements logically can only mean that you believe that the children of the wealthy are innately more intelligent than the children of poorer people.

Your claim that children from private schools who get better grades than children from state schools must be more intelligent can only point to that belief. Private schoolchildren are disproportionatly represented at the top universities and in the top jobs. You deny that they are advantaged by their schooling - therefore they must simply be superior.

I see that you don't want to pay taxes. Do you really want to live in an untaxed society? I find that baffling.

Happiestblonde - not going to get into university entrance or taxation, since it's not what this thread is about. But do I take it that you think it is perfectly OK to auction off entry level work experience opportunities for prestigious jobs?

It's a total logical disconnect.

There is equal opportunity for all - we live in a meritocracy. So I am sending my children to private school.

Did anyone see that program about the poshness of the government? They had a bit on there about internships and the presenter noted that they were closed to many as they were upaid, and they usually went to people with connections.

Sardinequeen - in Banks.

If it aids the Conservative Party, they can auction off sacrificial goats for all I care. On a serious note I do not think it's ideal but this is not that common and I do believe in unpaid internships.

Sardine - gahhh NO. I think that any child of any background should get a university place if they have a higher grade, I disagree with those with lower grades being given preference over those with higher just because the higher achiever happened to go to private school which is being mooted at the moment for universities that want to charge 9k. Of course private education is an advantage but I do think those with higher grades should get the places wherever they are from regardless of whatever advantage their parents gave them - they still did better at an academic test and a university should take those with the best academic records.

I didn't say untaxed society. I believe in a flat rate of income tax - say 25% - regardless of earnings and a much smaller state, plus the big society to plug gaps.

What sort of thing though? The internships that we offered were paid, but not at a rate higher than they would start on. I'm just wondering what job you start fresh out of university on for £50K pa!

Unpaid internships do not just go to those who can 'afford' to do them - I've had so many friends work evenings and weekends to support an unpaid internship because they believed it was worth it for their future career. Noone is being forced into unpaid labour here it's a choice and businesses (over-taxed...) are unlikely to offer so many vital work experience opportunities if they had to pay even NMW.

So you absolutely believe that the wealthy should be able to buy privilege.

You see that is what I fundamentally have a problem with. That is why we do not share the same politics. I do not believe it is right that people's opportunities should be decided by the family they are born into.

My father's wasn't...

I

The wealthy have privelege rather than buy it. I think you create your own fortune in life and sometimes advantage isn't always... an advantage. I have a friend who's a total idiot, drifting about in his Chelsea flat bought by barrister parents with a 3rd in politics (how is this even possible!?) and no work experience because he's never had to, he just takes bad drugs and buys women who won't ever sleep with him champagne... all because he is financially able to get away with this. It's awful.

Why this desire to overlook all of the figures for the whole country, re who goes where and who ends up doing what - in favour of holding up one person as an example and saying "well if he can do it so can anyone". It's not logical. Unless you believe that the majority of less wealthy people actually are stupid and lazy. Then it makes perfect sense.

So many people just have a poverty of aspiration

My son who done the internships got his job from there he starts when he finishes this year, he will be earning £45k a year, he also gets a 5k starting bonus.

It's investment banking for an international bank.

fabby I thought it must be that. The highest paid people in my industry (financial) start out on about £30K and accelerate swiftly as they pass their professional exams, it's still a lot less though.

I am surprised they pay the interns more than the people doing the job though, I would have thought that could lead to some resentment. I guess there will be additional bonuses and enhancements to push that £45K up much further though.

Yeah it comes with bonuses too. The internship paid what he will bet for a permanent position. They take over a 100 Uni students for internships during the summer.

Amazing, hope my youngest gets in there too when it is his time.

happiestblonde so we're back to it being that when the less wealthy do not succeed, it's nothing to do with the different schooling and different contacts.

You say that you don't believe that wealthy people are intrinsically better than poorer people but your posts keep giving you away.

I can see that if you start from a standpoint that people who have less money are in that position because they are thick and lazy, there really is no reason to try and improve their lot.

I believe the only reason the less wealthy don't achieve is because their parents don't push them or encourage them.

My sons father comes from a family of men who don't work, his twin brother has a son almost the same age as my son, their son was not encouraged to stay on or do anything.

As such whilst mine is at Uni with a job to go to their son sits on his arse all day poncing off the state, waiting on his cleaner mother to bring home the daily quota of beers.

It is nothing to do with money, it is to do with ambition and wanting better for yourself than your parents had. If the parents don't push/encourage then the child fails.

I think the problem here in nothing at all to do with the buyers of the internships and everything to do with the organisations who are prepared to sell them off to the higher bidder: that is where I'd apply heat to get change.

Very lazy headline in the linked article: Cameron wasn't the event organiser and there doesn't appear to be any claim that he was involved in any capacity in organising the auction. Clever of the Mail to do that - helps undermine by volume/ridiculousness the impact of anti-Cameron headlines.

I don't think your background alone determines your success. Education and good parenting are advantages but so much more comes from your own desire to succeed. Again, agree with Fabby.

Do you know what, sometimes we have to accept that life just isn't fair. It never has been, it never will be. Taking away privileges from people at the top won't make life any easier for the people at the bottom.

Assuming the people at the top are the cleverest, they will use their intelligence to make life better from themselves, not worse.

fabby why do private schools exist then, and why are the students from these schools disproportionately represented at best universities and the best jobs?

If it were all down to parental encouragement there would not be any need for private schools. And there would not be such a massive difference in the outcomes of those who go there. To believe that the average private school parent is more encouraging than the average parent who moves/finds religion/buys vast amounts of tutoring to get their children into the right state schools (and there are certainly plenty of them) is strange.

Gosh that is a very old fashioned view - do you tug your forelock when you encounter one of your "betters", alouise?