To wonder if some kids are just...

[fuzzypicklehead]

... nasty little... buggers individuals?

Not a thread about a thread, but inspired by last week's "Things you can't say in real life" thread in Chat. I noticed several posts along the lines of "I like you but I won't be hanging out with you anymore because your DCs hurt/bully/upset my kids". Those hit home with me because I had considered posting something similar.

I know it's in toddlers' nature to be ego-centric, boisterous, clumsy, territorial and attention seeking. I expect tiredness, grouchiness, tantrums, and sometimes hitting, pushing, snatching, hair pulling and even biting. I figure those are all part of learning to control impulses and get along with others. And obviously there are small children with special needs that react differently to stimuli or become frustrated with difficulty understanding or communicating. I try to take that in to account when I interact with other people's children.

But of the dozens of children I've known, two have just struck me as downright nasty. One 3yo and one 4.5yo, but I've known them both since birth. The two are unrelated and have never met each other. But in each case I've repeatedly witnessed behaviour that seems entirely motivated by causing another child pain or distress. The worst examples were directed at small babies including kicking, pushing, hitting over the head with toys and kneeling on a baby's face. But older kids are also targets, even those that they speak of as their "best friends".

In the case of the younger child, I've often observed him checking to see if mum is watching before upsetting another child by punching/pushing/snatching and taunting. If mum is watching he'll freeze and stop himself, but if he sees that she's distracted he goes for it--no matter that another adult tries to intervene. In fact, he's likely to clout an adult that tries to stop him.

Both kids know right from wrong, and would be able to identify those behaviours as naughty. In both cases the parents would tell the children it was wrong. But without fail, whenever I see either child there will be at least one incident where another child is left sobbing as a result of their behaviour. I wouldn't really expect empathy from such young children, but the total lack of remorse when explaining why the behaviour is wrong does shock me a bit.

I know no one would like to think that their child was just "bad". So AIBU to wonder if some kids are just nasty pieces of work?

(and if they are, will they grow out of it? Is it just the way they are or IYE is it because of the way the parents address the behaviour?)

I get your point. Usually I am a bit at child hating threads because they are usually written by the mothers of 1 PFB DD who dislike the (normal) behaviour of (usually) older boys.

The behaviour you describe is quite shocking really particularly the kneeling on a baby's face. My 2 boys are badly behaved on occasion but I don't think that they would never do anything nasty or really mean.

If you look at society, evil people exist and these people were children once.

It's sort of a taboo subject really isn't it. It would be imaginably awful to conclude that your child was evil or really nasty even if you tried to best to parent them well.

When ds1 ws very little, up to the age of about 6 or 7, I used to be amazed at how horrible he could be. It really used to upset me that he genuinely didn't care if he hurt other children.

I began to suspect Aspergers, and was proved right after a while. I have no doubt that when he was little other parent must have just thought that he was plain nasty. But with no ability at all to empathise, or think beyond your own limited emotions, it's to be expected really.

Aargh. Wrote a double negative there. Oh, you all know what I mean...

An interesting OP, and the answer is probably a little bit of both nature and nurture are the causes of childrens behaviour.

I don't believe any child is born 'bad', that would be writing off a lot of children early on in their lives.

You only see those children as they are now, if they were born bad no child who was like that would turn out OK as an adult, and that's just not true.

They need to learn to behave considerately to others, and if the person teaching them isn't doing it in an effective way to that childs personality traits, then they're just going to carry on.

It'd be impossible to prescribe a one size fits all technique that'd churn out fantastically well balanced children, that's why it's all trial and error.

That's interesting Curlymama. Do you think that a lot of adults who commit serious crimes suffer from conditions like Aspergers (I have no experience of this btw)

Yet again, a discussion I am keen to have comes up on Mumsnet. I think some children are "bad" - that is to say, spiteful, cruel and later on manipulative and calculating. Do we say this is down to parenting, or personality disorder - or both in some cases. Interesting to see what everyone thinks, I don't have the answers.

BTW can I just put in the subject of Oppositional Defiant Disorder, which when it develops in children can lead into psychopathy in adulthood - my friend's child has this and he is one scary kid. Does anyone else have experience of this, and if so, do you think this might be an answer to some children's breathtaking behaviour (cruelty etc)?

I read once in a study of serial killers at least half of them showed pleasure as children in cruelty to animals. Insects and other children. Some used to kill animals and then take them apart etc. Scary!!!! This was at toddler age so I'd say if this study is to be believed. Maybe Some kids can be born bad. I'd hope not but there it is....

I must say, I don't have a lot of experience of young children with Aspergers (lots of teens and adults though), so perhaps that could be it. In those cases I would be expecting the child to be totally self-interested and completely lacking in empathy for any upset or injury caused. So snatching or pushing out of the way to get to something he/she wants, would be expected.

The bit that leaves me cold is when they've just hurt another child deliberately, with no other motivation but to make them upset. Not fighting over a toy or whose turn it is, but just pounding on someone who is no threat to them.

It kind of gives me chills, really.

I really hate it when kids behave like that - in fact, it makes me want to cry.
DS was like that for a while when he was four and I was pregnant with his sister - I felt really awfull, and I did everything possible to stamp it out. Luckily it passed. He's always been rough, but there is a huge difference between that and wanting to hurt someone. At least I was able to understand why his best friend turned absolutely evil when his mum was pregnant - he would do things like pick up a metal car and hit DS on the head as hard as he could for no reason at all!

Is it the way that a mother/father try and pacify/tell off a child that lets them 'become' that nasty/evil little blighters?

I've seen a few examples of small children under 6 behaving badly and usually their parent doesn't seem to either

a) calm them down in a way that suits the child or b) stop the behaviour and take them away from the situation.

Some parents I've seen just blatantly ignore terrible behaviour and I feel like scolding them.

That's just a basic observation, not a blanket statement. I'm no perfect mother and my children have done all of the above at some point. But not regularly.

I only know one kid who grew up to be psychotic, literally speaking. He was very naughty but also very very bright and reached milestones lightyears ahead of other babies, walking at six months etc.
This guy has a chemical disorder and paranoid schizophrenia, both his sisters are very kind and gentle people who wouldn't hurt a fly. Very odd indeed.

Woah there Booandpops, I don't think there's any significant connection between children misbehaving and then going on to become violent offenders.

It might be possible to say that a high proportion of violent offenders had indicators in their childhood that they were having problems, but it doesn't necessarily work the other way in saying that children having problems are more likely to become violent in later life.

Shall read up on Oppositional Defiant Disorder. That may well shed some light on things.

As Tryharder pointed out, there are evil adults in the world and I suppose they have to come from somewhere. But at the same time, no one wants to think of a child as "evil".

Agent. Yes. I'm just mentioning the study as it's stuck in my mind but I'm not accusing any one of being a serial killer because they were a bit wild as a child. God forbid that were the case!!!

It's all nurture.

What people dont appreciate is how young that nurture can happen. Very little credit is given to pre verbal behaviour and I think birth trauma has something to answer for too.

Also perhaps (though this is reaching) high cortisol rates in pregnancy.

In short , if you want to breed a sociopath have a pregnancy taking place during domestic violence, followed by a traumatic birth, followed by a severely affected primary carer who is unable to show empathy.

I've only met one sociopathic child (in the care system) who falls into this category.

To wonder if some kids are just nasty little... buggers?

Certainly one such kid springs to mind for me! A right manipulative little so and so, with a spiteful and mean streak.

It's nuture that causes it.

Psychologists have been studying it for years.

It is all down to the time from birth onwards, the way they have been brought up, how much attention they had as babies, if they were left crying etc., If they were cuddled a lot.

All of how a child is brought up barring medical problems is what makes a child a child i.e through all their years up to adulthood.

Adults with personality disorders have them because of an event or sequence of events that happened at an impressionable age whilst they were growing emotionally.

I have BPD, I have that because of somethings that happened to me during the ages of 13 to 15. Those events shaped my life and I now have a severe personality disorder. I've always had it but right now at 46 it is worse than ever.

Thanks MUM and DAD!

So Laurie are you saying that there has been research that suggests keeping stress levels low makes a happier more placid baby/child?

That's interesting. I know children begin to show their personalities at a very young age, but I had always viewed them as fairly malleable as toddlers. Does anybody know at what point a person's personality is considered "established"? At what point would it be too late to intervene and help a troubled child become a healthy, happy adult?

Both of the kids I'm thinking of actually have had very loving and attentive parents with a fairly gentle parenting approach. (Although there may be tensions at home that I don't know about)

The child I'm thinking of with Op Def. Disorder was very much wanted and loved, but born into a chaotic situation where he was subjected to stimuli for hours at a time due to parents' job. If he cried during the night, because the parents didn't bother much with sleeping then, they'd simply get him out of his cot etc and put him in front of TV for hours on end. As he grew, time meant nothing, there were no routines or boundaries, meals might come or they might not and as his behaviour started to manifest, he was constantly indulged, showered with toys, treats, trips to the seaside etc.

If other people complained, then they were no longer friends with them. They said that the world was at fault as it didn't understand their son and surrounded themselves with people who didn't show any concern over their parenting. Eventually, he was diagnosed. Then it became a medical condition which meant he couldn't be held responsible for his behaviour. And so it continues - we don't see them anymore as their DS was a danger to our DCs.

Second (or third) Laurie and Fabby.
I work in mental health and some of my clients have personality disorders (ODD is just a kids version of personality disorder). At an extreme this can include psychopathy where they have no empathy or remorse for hurting others. Without exception all of them were abused or neglected in some way as children. A big job of being a parent is to help children deal with extremes of emotion. If you don't learn that as a child you can wind up with uncontrollable mood swings or just cut off from all your feelings as an adult.

Doesn't mean all badly behaved kids will have PD though. There can be all kinds of explanations for really 'bad' behaviour. Some have already mentioned their children displaying it when they were pregnant. That could be just unleashing really negative violent, angry feelings you have about being displaced by a new baby on to other children instead. Stopping to look if mum is watching might imply that some children have learnt that very bad behaviour is the only surefire way to get some attention.

Officially your personality isn't considered established until teens hence you can't be diagnosed with a personality disorder until you're >16 but even tiny babies have personality traits. If a child is adopted away from an abusive family there are less effects if they are under 2 or 3.

That's interesting Mamadoc - I wonder if you have ever come across behaviour where a child "sets up" a situation where, say, another child or young child will get hurt - then rather than hoping mum will notice the bad behaviour, actually gets to a "safe" distance to watch what happens as the situation unfolds?