To wonder if some kids are just...

[fuzzypicklehead]

... nasty little... buggers individuals?

Not a thread about a thread, but inspired by last week's "Things you can't say in real life" thread in Chat. I noticed several posts along the lines of "I like you but I won't be hanging out with you anymore because your DCs hurt/bully/upset my kids". Those hit home with me because I had considered posting something similar.

I know it's in toddlers' nature to be ego-centric, boisterous, clumsy, territorial and attention seeking. I expect tiredness, grouchiness, tantrums, and sometimes hitting, pushing, snatching, hair pulling and even biting. I figure those are all part of learning to control impulses and get along with others. And obviously there are small children with special needs that react differently to stimuli or become frustrated with difficulty understanding or communicating. I try to take that in to account when I interact with other people's children.

But of the dozens of children I've known, two have just struck me as downright nasty. One 3yo and one 4.5yo, but I've known them both since birth. The two are unrelated and have never met each other. But in each case I've repeatedly witnessed behaviour that seems entirely motivated by causing another child pain or distress. The worst examples were directed at small babies including kicking, pushing, hitting over the head with toys and kneeling on a baby's face. But older kids are also targets, even those that they speak of as their "best friends".

In the case of the younger child, I've often observed him checking to see if mum is watching before upsetting another child by punching/pushing/snatching and taunting. If mum is watching he'll freeze and stop himself, but if he sees that she's distracted he goes for it--no matter that another adult tries to intervene. In fact, he's likely to clout an adult that tries to stop him.

Both kids know right from wrong, and would be able to identify those behaviours as naughty. In both cases the parents would tell the children it was wrong. But without fail, whenever I see either child there will be at least one incident where another child is left sobbing as a result of their behaviour. I wouldn't really expect empathy from such young children, but the total lack of remorse when explaining why the behaviour is wrong does shock me a bit.

I know no one would like to think that their child was just "bad". So AIBU to wonder if some kids are just nasty pieces of work?

(and if they are, will they grow out of it? Is it just the way they are or IYE is it because of the way the parents address the behaviour?)

MrsNonSmoker (sorry, I just learned how to do bold! ) Thats a similar situation to one of the children I'm thinking of. Very much a case of the world needing to adapt to them instead of him needing to find his place in the world. And I am worried that we will end up having to avoid this family to protect our own children.

But I'm hoping to find some explanation or context for the behaviours so that I can work around them.

The other child is the one that "looks to see if Mum is watching", and it may be that he is trying to get her attention. His mum is a bit distractable, although she does seem to lavish attention on him. Perhaps there is a bit of jealousy there and he doesn't like it when he isn't the absolute centre of her attention.

Mmm that sounds rather worse like experimenting with someone elses pain. When children are very young sometimes they think its funny if someone else is crying or hurt but to go as far as setting it up seems extreme.
No I was thinking of a little girl I knew who sadly is now in care who quite obviously used to behave in very extreme ways to get her mums attention like violence to others or deliberately wetting herself (at age 5). It was fairly obvious just watching (and this was as another mum not in any prof capacity) that it was just the only way she could get through.

At what point would you start to get worried about a childs mental/emotional state when you see behaviours like these?

(not that I would be keen to suggest to any parent that their toddler had mental health issues! I can just see how that would go down.)

Can I just say that my ds has Aspergers and has never, ever deliberately hurt another child, nor is he unfeeling towards others

I know this isn't what the thread is about, but seeing the link people draw between AS and basically sociopathic behaviour gives me the collywobbles

The only child who I knew who would be out and out mean apparently for no reason was quite old with no diagnosis, but everyone knew something was very wrong and was being tested for everything under the sun.

As a foetus he was liberally baked with every drug his mother could get her hands on.

His dad is absolutely desperate to help him and I hope very much they find a way to help him before he becomes an institutionalised adult.

AS is definately NOT the same as being sociopathic.

Hopefully everyone is clear on that.

I guess if it is very frequent ie every time you see them and very sustained with no obvious trigger like a new sibling or other upheaval in their life.
Usually though if it was going to be a long term problem there would either be a developmental problem with the child eg Aspergers or it would be a family situation where the problems were obvious.
With my friend who had her DD taken into care it was a big surprise to me that that happened and I wished I had maybe said something to her before but it never goes down well to criticise someone elses parenting.
I think the maximum you can say is to suggest they talk to HV or GP and that would have to be sort of in a context of them bringing it up I would think.

Sorry cross post definitely do not mean to imply that AS and sociopathic are the same thing at all. I think it was actually another poster whose son has AS who raised it first as an explanation for his behaviour as a child

When I was a toddler I would physically attack anyone who looked me in the eyes, and I beat up other kids who bothered me.

I know exactly why I did those things (and more) I grew up in a violent household, I thought the world was against me and everyone in it, to look me in the eyes was a threat, other kids I didn't understand I found them stupid and annoying, they played idiotic games I considered below me and I wanted them to go away and leave me alone.

My DS was one of those 'horrible' children, who could tell you right from wrong in theory, but would happily push a smaller child over on purpose or punch another child to get their toy (long after the age when it was 'normal' toddler behaviour). The outrage and bile I received from other parents was quite scary.

I'm so glad my friends stuck with me, though, even when my child attacked their child (obviously I always, always dealt with the behaviour - it just didn't necessarily stop him from doing it again next time ).

DS has Asperger's, btw, and is getting a lot better with support.

I know a child who is foul. She really is the nastiest most bullying little cow you would ever be unfortunate enough to meet.
Her parents are both very nice, although they dismiss concerns about their DD as jealousy.

YANBU at all, some children are just nasty and vile

I've noticed that bullying children have either very indulgent parents who let them do what they want, or very strict parents who are on their case all the time.
The indulged children are bad all the time and the ones from very strict households only mis-behave away from the parent it seems that in both cases the children hav'nt learnt self control.

And I've also read about that study linking early animal cruelty as a precursor to moving onto people

I don't understand why it would be entirely 'nurture' if a child experiences early neglect. It may well be that the mother and father are themselves neglectful and emotionally undeveloped as part of a genetic pattern, which perpetuates itself down the generations. In this instance, nature and nurture might come together.

(I don't actually go a bundle on genetic explanations, but you can't dismiss them entirely and you have to wonder why some parents lack empathy and nurturing skills for their own children, or indeed why some very neglected and abused children actually break the pattern of early deprivation).

The child I am talking about has very well balanced parents. Entirely normal. She on the other hand is a total bitch. Flame away, it's the truth. So glad we left her and her bizarre attempts at friendship with my DD long behind.

Kreecher, that's where I run into difficulty. Because I'm conscious that some kids may have undiagnosed issues, I try to avoid viewing any kid as a nasty person.

But deep down, sometimes I can't help but think that either:

a) the parents must be doing a crap job, or

b) the kid is just a PITA.

I used to torcher/torment insects (normally with matches), I've never hurt anyone since I left home and would never hurt anyone unless they threatened me.

So I don't buy the whole being cruel to animals leads to being cruel to people in later life.

Ryoko, I think most people have pulled the legs off spiders or squashed an ant. The type of animal cruelty that some very disturbed children engage in is way beyond that, to cats/dogs etc. Very deliberately torturing an animal that is clearly in distress (not like an insect) is a sign of either emotional cruelty or a lack of empathy, and this does then transfer to being deliberately cruel or violent to humans unfortunately.

It's not the only 'sign', as I understand it, starting fires, extreme neglect/abuse inc. sexual and so on, they are unfortunately part of a package of deprivation for some children, so the fact that you once cut a worm in half to see what would happen is neither here nor there.

I didn't cut worms in half that would be boring I chased ants around with lit matches and stuff .

I don't see any difference between an insect and an animal they both are clearly thinking beings with feelings that feel pain IMO (insects show clear signs that they feel pain how can you say they don't?).

Ryoko-I'd imagine the vast majority of us would rightly or wrongly kill a Spider or cockroach without a second glance but would those same people be happy to knowingly torture a rabbit or cat?? That's the difference and it's immense.

Of course some children are little snot bags. Some adults are big snot bags.

DS1 and DS2 have very different personalities very different, DS2 is only 10 months and it already very clear.

Um, I haven't read all of this and it is late and I'm doing the typing-whilst- insomniac thing, so forgive me if I am being a twat or missing the point..

someone mentioned that nurture can cause BPD -for which I am reading bi-polar disorder - and blaming "mum and dad" for causing it by NURTURE.

IME (which is considerable) - you can in part thank mum and dad for BPD if it is a hereditary condition, in much the same way as you could thank mum or dad for the breast cancer gene...but not through nurture.

You can't really "nurture in" a disease. Nurture can help you live with it successfully or make it worse, I would think.

From what I've read of ODD, it is mainly present in children under 10 years and most likely to be apparent at home or in school, places where the child has attachment figures and can judge others reactions well ( I don't know but assume that beyond this age other related psychological problems become more defined and these are diagnosed separately.) Cognitive therapy is used to help children with ODD and can be successful, depending on the severity of the Disorder.

They do not know as yet what causes ODD but have links both the biological causes and environmental causes - so NOT nurture in the case of ODD

Isn't it strange that I've only come across this during the last month researching the problematic behaviour I see in a child at Kindergarten - it's not the behaviour, it's the calculated quality and the assessed level of harm/anguish/frustration that is apparent in the behaviour that I find most difficult, there seems to be a very skewed 'reward' system in the child with ODD a pleasure in the negative response.