To wonder if some kids are just...

[fuzzypicklehead]

... nasty little... buggers individuals?

Not a thread about a thread, but inspired by last week's "Things you can't say in real life" thread in Chat. I noticed several posts along the lines of "I like you but I won't be hanging out with you anymore because your DCs hurt/bully/upset my kids". Those hit home with me because I had considered posting something similar.

I know it's in toddlers' nature to be ego-centric, boisterous, clumsy, territorial and attention seeking. I expect tiredness, grouchiness, tantrums, and sometimes hitting, pushing, snatching, hair pulling and even biting. I figure those are all part of learning to control impulses and get along with others. And obviously there are small children with special needs that react differently to stimuli or become frustrated with difficulty understanding or communicating. I try to take that in to account when I interact with other people's children.

But of the dozens of children I've known, two have just struck me as downright nasty. One 3yo and one 4.5yo, but I've known them both since birth. The two are unrelated and have never met each other. But in each case I've repeatedly witnessed behaviour that seems entirely motivated by causing another child pain or distress. The worst examples were directed at small babies including kicking, pushing, hitting over the head with toys and kneeling on a baby's face. But older kids are also targets, even those that they speak of as their "best friends".

In the case of the younger child, I've often observed him checking to see if mum is watching before upsetting another child by punching/pushing/snatching and taunting. If mum is watching he'll freeze and stop himself, but if he sees that she's distracted he goes for it--no matter that another adult tries to intervene. In fact, he's likely to clout an adult that tries to stop him.

Both kids know right from wrong, and would be able to identify those behaviours as naughty. In both cases the parents would tell the children it was wrong. But without fail, whenever I see either child there will be at least one incident where another child is left sobbing as a result of their behaviour. I wouldn't really expect empathy from such young children, but the total lack of remorse when explaining why the behaviour is wrong does shock me a bit.

I know no one would like to think that their child was just "bad". So AIBU to wonder if some kids are just nasty pieces of work?

(and if they are, will they grow out of it? Is it just the way they are or IYE is it because of the way the parents address the behaviour?)

One of my good friends has a son with ODD. She is the nicest person, whilst he is clearly very disturbed, and hs quite a high level of mental health support. His dad has very late diagnosed Asergers and they have had some difficult times in their relationship, but there has in no way been any neglect or abuse. His younger sister is delightful. I would say in their case that there was almost certainly a genetic factor. that doesn't mean that I like her son very much, he has in the past been very violent (mostly towards his mother and sister) and it is very upsetting to see, but it is also quite clearly not something he can control in the same way as an NT child.

Oh, and I have a friend with bi-polar disorder, and he had a fairly idyllic childhood and very supportive parents. The truth is we don't really understand half of what goes on in the brain, so really at this point the conclusions we draw are almost guesses. Lots of psychological treatment developed in the past has been on the flimsiest of evidence.

I totally agree wabbit, it does seem to be a reward problem, and perhaps that's why the similarity to neglected children who learn warped reward systems (better to be hit than ignored).

I know nothing of ODD but I do know a fair bit about manic depression or BPD, and from my own experience, and the information from outside agencies I have had dealings with, that there are a large number of families like mine (I have a lot of siblings in today's terms) tells me that BPD is primarily and usually a genetic disorder and nurture can help or hinder the individual - but NOT prevent/start the illness.

i think that what's telling is the children who check to see if they're likely to be caught before doing something - in the op's example, it would seem to me that these children know that they are doing something wrong, and are able to control their behaviour. that is not a child with a medical problem/disorder, because they wouldn't be able to control it so cleverly (at that age).

my sil works with psychotic criminals, and has done for years. we had a discussion once, in which she said that there are some v clear indicators of people who have biological reasons for their behaviour, and cannot control it. her job is to assess people who have been arrested for violent crimes, to see if they can plead mental illness.

the factors that she looks at include cruelty towards other living creatures as a child, but not just exclusively that. these people, as children, would be able to control where/when they bullied other creatures, becoming more sophisticated as they grow older. in her opinion, these people are able to control their behaviour, but not defeat it. so, they could well be like the examples in the op - able to choose when to do it, but maybe not able to stop it altogether.

so i think there are some people who seem to be 'born like it' but others who never learn not to put themselves first.

personally, i think we're all born with a survival instinct, which is not always nice or sociable. hence why toddlers snatch toys & hit etc. so, whilst i don't see toddlers as 'naughty', nor do i see them as innocent & pure. mother nature is fierce, not cute & cuddly.

fwiw, dd's best 'friend' before we moved was, imo, a completely messed up & really quite nasty. at the age of 5 she regularly (i mean several times an hour) would attempt to reduce other kids to tears by taunting/hitting/lying etc. she was v defiant and rude to adult helpers, but 'butter wouldn't melt' when faced with a teacher. i already knew that she had horrible verbal and physical fights with her mum, and soon after we moved, mum & dad split up, with MANY acrimonious fights, mum screaming, hitting, melodramatic etc. i strongly suspect that the little girl had learnt her behaviour rather been born with a problem.

i think that what's telling is the children who check to see if they're likely to be caught before doing something - in the op's example, it would seem to me that these children know that they are doing something wrong, and are able to control their behaviour. that is not a child with a medical problem/disorder, because they wouldn't be able to control it so cleverly (at that age).

my sil works with psychotic criminals, and has done for years. we had a discussion once, in which she said that there are some v clear indicators of people who have biological reasons for their behaviour, and cannot control it. her job is to assess people who have been arrested for violent crimes, to see if they can plead mental illness.

the factors that she looks at include cruelty towards other living creatures as a child, but not just exclusively that. these people, as children, would be able to control where/when they bullied other creatures, becoming more sophisticated as they grow older. in her opinion, these people are able to control their behaviour, but not defeat it. so, they could well be like the examples in the op - able to choose when to do it, but maybe not able to stop it altogether.

so i think there are some people who seem to be 'born like it' but others who never learn not to put themselves first.

personally, i think we're all born with a survival instinct, which is not always nice or sociable. hence why toddlers snatch toys & hit etc. so, whilst i don't see toddlers as 'naughty', nor do i see them as innocent & pure. mother nature is fierce, not cute & cuddly.

fwiw, dd's best 'friend' before we moved was, imo, a completely messed up & really quite nasty. at the age of 5 she regularly (i mean several times an hour) would attempt to reduce other kids to tears by taunting/hitting/lying etc. she was v defiant and rude to adult helpers, but 'butter wouldn't melt' when faced with a teacher. i already knew that she had horrible verbal and physical fights with her mum, and soon after we moved, mum & dad split up, with MANY acrimonious fights, mum screaming, hitting, melodramatic etc. i strongly suspect that the little girl had learnt her behaviour rather been born with a problem.

sorry!

I don't know. I think there are some genuinely horrid children but more often problems are rooted in unfortunate starts or parents with difficulties.

There was boy in DD's class who had no idea how to behave - he came here once and I suspect he was on the autistic spectrum - made playdough balls and put them in little rows (for an hour) wouldn't sit at the table - sat under it, tried to chop of dd's leg, at school was unaware of boundaries and unmanageable and often quite aggressive - hitting/pinching. I couldn't face to have him here again - the other mother constantly asked dd for tea and wouldn't back off in spite of several polite "oh we would love to but" eventually saying - is it because she doesn't like him and doesn't want to come which I thought rather odd and unsocialised in itself. The mum also thought he was a genius and simply not being focused on academic work by the school. Eventually they moved away and I shall never be sure if it wasn't because the school were suggesting behavioural help was needed.

I know nothing about disability or various conditions but it seemed obvious the child needed specialist help to me. It also seemed obvious that the mother was a little odd too so genetic/nurture who knows but there but for the grace of god go I and I think I just hoped that in a similar situation I would have been a little more realistic and have sought a little professional help/advice for my child.