Page 4 | To not get the point of vegetarianism

Lamorna · 30/01/2011 12:05

I really don't think it matters and it is just personal choice. People have all sorts of reasons for being vegetarians and it isn't all about animal welfare.
As long as neither side tries to force their views I don't see a problem. I eat meat and will continue to do so, I will happily cater for vegetarians but I don't expect them to criticise my choice. I have the same information, I just interpret it differently.

midsummerfairycichlid · 30/01/2011 12:25

It's not personal choice for the animals though is it Lamorna? They don't get any say in the matter that they're bred and brought into the world unnecessarily for a lifetime of cramped conditions and brutal slaughter at the end.

Animals are self aware, can feel pain and anguish, and have an interest in their own continued existence; that will always trump any superficial reasons humans have for exploiting them, such as merely liking the taste of meat. If it's wrong to cause suffering to one sentient creature like a kitten, it's wrong to cause suffering to all sentient creatures.

putthekettleon · 30/01/2011 13:06

Oh god, you sound just like me aged 11 when I used to badger my teachers about whether they ate meat, and forced my mum to buy me canvas school shoes that lasted about 2 minutes...

I grew out of it and although I stayed a vegetarian I realised badgering and demonising meat eaters was not the way to get the message across. It just makes you sound like a loon.

threefeethighandrising put it much more succintly and logically.

midsummerfairycichlid · 30/01/2011 13:43

If standing up for the rights of the voiceless to be free from exploitation and suffering makes me a loon, I'm more than happy to have that epithet.

mutznutz · 30/01/2011 13:59

mutznuts you really do have a problem with maths!

Before I became a vegetarian, I ate meat and dairy. I now only eat dairy. I have replaced the meat mostly with non-meat products, such as soya, quorn, tofu, nuts and pulses and many more veg than I ate before etc

Many fewer animals have died a brutal death to feed me than would have done if I'd stuck to eating meat

MANY fewer animals? Did you buy packets of bacon or the entire pig? Lamb chops or the whole lamb?

The fact is, it's a drop in the ocean compared to the slaughter of dairy animals that you willingly support. What you eat is your own personal choice, but to think you're making any difference in the amount of animals slaughtered is (imo) way off the mark.

Lamorna · 30/01/2011 14:57

'It's not personal choice for the animals though is it Lamorna? '

Although it doesn't annoy me, people can be vegetarians for whatever reason they wish, it annoys me intensely when they try to shove their opinions onto others! If everyone was vegetarian there would be no farm animals! (except a few in farm parks as rare breeds)
Yes, if I was an animal I would rather have a short happy life and a quick clean death rather than die of old age with ailments, foot rot, maggots etc because no one was looking after my welfare.( Humans want the right to end their life instead of suffering and yet animals are supposed to linger on!)
I buy my meat from a farm shop, I can see it it in the fields. I don't support factory farms. If I were to be worried about animal welfare I would stop buying dairy products, that is where the real distress is caused to the animal and yet the average vegetarian hasn't the foggiest on the production of milk.

I am quite happy for anyone to be vegetarian for whatever reason, but just get on with it. I eat meat, I grew up in the country. The nicest meat I ever tasted came from animals that I knew the name of and I am quite happy with it. If I was starving (as opposed to not having eaten for a week), I know perfectly well that I would eat anything , people do, survival kicks in. Stone age man wouldn't have got far on berries and goodness knows what they would have eaten in the arctic regions!

Original poster

Dancergirl · 30/01/2011 22:36

it annoys me intensely when they try to shove their opinions onto others!

You see, this I don't get. I am a meat eater but know quite a few veggies and I have NEVER had their views or opinions thrust upon me. I'm surprised at this. If the whole point is to reduce animal killing/cruelty, don't veggies or vegans want more people to stop eating meat?

Surely just boycotting meat is not enough...?

OP posts:

putthekettleon · 31/01/2011 08:15

I dunno, I think it's quite rude to thrust your opinions on others, which is why I don't. If someone asks me why I'm veggie I'll tell them but I don't feel the need to preach about it.

After all we all have lots of different views about things - if you're a labour supporter you don't go around asking the political views of everyone you meet and demanding they listen to you, do you? (well, I guess some would...)

Can't you just accept some people don't want to eat meat. It's their personal choice. It's not necessarily about changing the world.

Though Compassion In World Farming and Friends of The Earth clearly think just reducing the amount of meat eaten overall will make a difference... read this and this

Lamorna · 31/01/2011 08:28

I think that it is very rude to thrust your opinions about anything at other people. It is a personal matter and a personal choice. I never understand why people make their decisions and then think they are right, they are merely right for them. If you really want to influence someone you do it by example and just quietly get on with it yourself. The sure way to get opposition is to start forcefully telling others what they should do.
Some people are assuming that all vegetarians have made the choice because they don't want to kill animals and this isn't the case. I am attracted to a vegetarian diet and if I were to become one it would have nothing whatever to do with killing animals.I am quite happy that animals are killed. I don't want all the sheep to disappear from Lakeland fells, to never see a pig happily rooting around in the mud etc. I like the small field system, I don't want huge fields of crops and poly tunnels as far as the eye can see.
I really don't know why people don't just quietly do their own thing and let others do the same.

cory · 31/01/2011 09:49

Whilst agreeing with Lamorna on many points, I do think it would be far better if people ate less meat. There is no way our current levels of meat eating can be covered by happy sheep in the Lakeland fells; it requires the Amazon rain forest being cut down to grow food crops. I think we need to get back to the kind of diet most people had in the ancient world, where everyday is mainly vegetarian and meat is for celebration. That would still keep the pigs happily rooting. The ideal national diet would be one where our own meat production could cover our intake.

Lamorna · 31/01/2011 12:20

I agree cory and am far more likely to listen to your line of argument, whereas people throwing emotive stuff at me when they are fairly clueless about how it gets on their plate make me very anti!

PorphyPixie · 31/01/2011 13:00

I'm a veggie, I personally don't eat meat because I couldn't kill it or prepare it myself.

There are other issues involved. Supply and Demand as already mentioned, also if the demand increases it means that more land goes towards rearing stock, and more vegetable/grain products would be needed to feed that stock. then there is the environmental issues which I don't fully understand but they're there, more meat needed, more methane realised into the atmosphere and all that business. And then the animal rights angle. Much to think about.

I also find it hypocritical that in Britain, we tend to say that it's okay to eat one type of meat (such as cow) but not another (for example, dog) and also we discard parts of the animal which are perfectly edible, but the 'grossness' factor means that they aren't eaten. I find it funny how people think that fishing is a fine sport for youngsters, yet taking them hunting for food is frowned upon.

Also, meat consumption is very common in meat eating families, when a human realistically does not need as much as they actually eat.

threefeethighandrising · 31/01/2011 13:35

I don't force my veggie view on people partly because I am just sick of covering the same ground with certain ignorant meat eaters who just don't seem able to get it!

I got a sinking feeling when I saw this thread, and got dragged in to it against my better judgement!

threefeethighandrising · 31/01/2011 13:38

PorphyPixie I use the grossness factor as an example for why meat is wrong. IMO eating all meat is just as gross.

That some meat is considered OK is proof that eating meat desensitises people to something which is in reality disgusting.

I try to explain to meat eaters that how they feel about eating dog or cat is how I feel about eating any kind of meat.

PorphyPixie · 31/01/2011 13:40

threefeethighandrising: I like your earlier post, very interesting :)

I'm the same as well, it's always the same few people who badger me about eating meat. I very rarely explain reasons for not eating meat, but I hate it when meat eaters feel that they can tell me what to eat.

When I was 17/18 I was the only veggie out of a group I hung out with (boyfriend's friends ) and when we had barbeques they'd purposely put meat on my little veggie BBQ, try to shove sausages into my mouth, flick blood from meat packages at me, etc. The behaviour was disgusting and I still come across similar behaviours from other adults (just not as extreme).

It's all about choice, and if I'm not going to bug someone for eating meat, I don't want them to bug me for not.

PorphyPixie · 31/01/2011 13:48

That's a good point actually, never thoguht to bring up my feelings in comparison to theirs RE cat/dog comsumption.

On the grossness factor though, you don't eat any meat because of it, whereas a lot of meateaters I know won't eat certain parts of meat because of it, which seems irrelevant imo. If you eat meat, you should eat every part of it possible to minimise waste, which is what other cultures do. We're so used to this all being done for us and getting the 'best' parts of the meat that we would be lost without our butchers and the people who do the hard part for us.

It also amazes me that quite a few kids believe that meat is the same as grains and vegetables. I've actually had a child tell me before that meat grows on trees and that Mummy and Daddy had told them this! As soon as I discovered what meat actually was I became a veggie, I was five. It was more a case of "But animals are my friends!" at that age though

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 31/01/2011 14:00

I usually say to people how would you feel about eating eyeball? Or bollocks? Or human flesh? Or Fido? because that "yuck" reaction is the same as I get to all flesh. I just don't like the idea of eating dead bodies. Call me weird.

Also agree that if you wouldn't kill it yourself then it's hypocritical to eat it. On this issue I get on much better with my huntin' shootin' fishin' friends who eat what they catch, then my softer-hearted pals who wouldn't dream of hurting a living chicky-wick yet will eat chicken breasts out of a packet without a moment's compunction.

Having said all this I have never started a conversation about vegetarianism (other than "no thanks I am a..."), it's always meat eaters IME who want to "challenge" my views i.e. start a fight.

Anyone who doesn't get that contributing to the deaths of one lot of animals via dairy etc, kills fewer animals than contributing to the deaths of two lots of animals via eating meat AND dairy is a bit thick, btw.

KnittedBreast · 31/01/2011 14:10

if less people eat meat then less people buy meat and so the demand for meat decreases and so less animals are killed. obviously. yabu for even asking such an obvious question in the first palce!

monkeyflippers · 31/01/2011 14:14

If the animal has already been killed and the meat is there anyway, why not eat it?

Don't be so stupid!