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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not get the point of vegetarianism

94 replies

Dancergirl · 29/01/2011 23:20

I understand people who think it's cruel to kill and eat animals but how is their non-eating of meat going to stop that?

If the animal has already been killed and the meat is there anyway, why not eat it?

OP posts:
threefeethighandrising · 30/01/2011 00:09

Or fewer animals even.

mutznutz · 30/01/2011 00:09

Mutznutz, I agree, I'm well aware of the life span of hens, male calves etc. (I do have my own hens and drink soy milk, but I don't avoid milk and eggs in all products).
But I disagree that I'm doing 'nothing'. All the veggies in the world contribute to less farming and slaughter of animals for meat.

No they don't zuzu they just contribute to the dead bodies being thrown in the bin..after being used to produce dairy products instead of being eaten.

cantspel · 30/01/2011 00:10

how about drinking as loads of wines, beers, ciders used animal fats or animal-derived substances in their production

Vallhala · 30/01/2011 00:11

Oh gawd... I was veggie for what must be over 25 years before becoming vegan, Zuzu. (Yes, I really am old and knackered!).

cantspel · 30/01/2011 00:12

threefeethighandrising or more waste as the milk cows will still be breed and the male calfs slaughtered and the male chickens sent to the grinder as they dont produce eggs.

ZuzuandZara · 30/01/2011 00:15

If I (and all the other veggies) don't eat animals that are reared for meat, then less animals are slaughtered for meat. Lamb, chicken, venison, pork, nothing to do with dairy.

Valhalla, I've been veggie for 20 years, I really hope I get it together soon to be vegan.

Vallhala · 30/01/2011 00:21

Zuzu, it really isn't a big step to take from being veggie. (Except cheese and chocolate!).

Cantspel, I rarely drink these days - no Im not Ms Supervirtuous, I used to drink like a fish as much as the next woman and have a talent for sinking Scotch without sinking under the table :o - but on the odd occasion that I do now I drink vegan red wine.

Dunno if Scotch is vegan... I really must find out!

mutznutz · 30/01/2011 00:22

If I (and all the other veggies) don't eat animals that are reared for meat, then less animals are slaughtered for meat. Lamb, chicken, venison, pork, nothing to do with dairy

Rubbish! Sorry but an animal slaughtered because it can no longer produce eggs or milk is still an animal slaughtered...whether it dies and gets eaten is neither here nor there because it still gets slaughtered.

Vallhala · 30/01/2011 00:24

Result!

Glenmorangie and a couple of Islays are vegan, as is Jim Beam bourbon.

:o

I'll be remembering that when my best pal visits soon. Wink

threefeethighandrising · 30/01/2011 00:24

I think people have having problems with basic maths and logic here. Certainly the dairy industry is responsible for the slaughter of many, many animals.

However, if fewer people are eating meat, fewer animals are killed.

Is that really so hard to understand?!

ZuzuandZara · 30/01/2011 00:27

Thanks for the encouragement Valllhala.

Mutznutz, I don't follow you. How about he animals that are produced for meat? Nothing to do with eggs or milk. The animals I mentioned above. Ok, not chicken. Lamb, pork?

Sorry, I've got to go, falling asleep on keyboard.

putthekettleon · 30/01/2011 00:28

Just putting my hand up to say I agree with threefeethighandrising. Veggies and vegans arguing makes my head hurt. Surely we're on the same side, sort of?

Now going to bed as I've managed to waste all night on AIBU somehow...

cantspel · 30/01/2011 00:30

male milk calfs make veal, less people eat veal = more slaughter of male calfs at a few days old. So why not eat veal and at least make use of this by product of the milk industry?

mutznutz · 30/01/2011 01:19

Mutznutz, I don't follow you. How about he animals that are produced for meat? Nothing to do with eggs or milk. The animals I mentioned above. Ok, not chicken. Lamb, pork

Yes they're nothing to do with dairy...but the dairy animals whose products vegetarians consume are slaughtered after their 'production expiry date'

Hence my point that if you are a veggie due to animal cruelty concerns....it's a load of bollocks. Cruel to a hen/cow/calf is just that...cruel.

There's no point in saying you lessen the amount of animals going to slaughter because if you eat dairy products you don't....

PenguinArmy · 30/01/2011 01:27

I went straight to being (dietary) vegan when I was 17. Was toying with the idea of becoming vegetarian, but then realised that dairy was worse than rearing for meat purposes.

It took a few years before I switched the non food items to vegan. A mixture of cost (was a student obviously for many years) and education, each year I added a few bits.

OP is that your stance on climate change as well. There's no point doing anything because it won't make a difference. A rather sad and defeatist way of living.

threefeethighandrising · 30/01/2011 01:40

mutznuts you really do have a problem with maths!

Before I became a vegetarian, I ate meat and dairy. I now only eat dairy. I have replaced the meat mostly with non-meat products, such as soya, quorn, tofu, nuts and pulses and many more veg than I ate before etc

Many fewer animals have died a brutal death to feed me than would have done if I'd stuck to eating meat.

threefeethighandrising · 30/01/2011 01:47

Here are some reasons to be vegetarian, taken from this page It's aimed at the US, but still very relevant.

Avoiding meat is one of the best and simplest ways to cut down your fat consumption.

Modern farm animals are deliberately fattened up to increase profits. Eating fatty meat increases your chances of having a heart attack or developing cancer.

Every minute of every working day, thousands of animals are killed in slaughter-houses. Pain and misery are common. In the US alone, 500,000 animals are killed for meat every hour.

There are millions of cases of food poisoning recorded every year. The vast majority are caused by eating meat.

Meat contains absolutely nothing - no proteins, vitamins or minerals - that the human body cannot obtain perfectly happily from a vegetarian diet.

African countries - where millions are starving to death - export grain to the developed world so that animals can be fattened for our dining tables.

'Meat' can include the tail, head, feet, rectum and spinal cord of an animal. A sausage can contain ground up intestines. How can anyone be sure that the intestines are empty when they are ground up? Do you really want to eat the content of a pig's intestines?

If we eat the plants we grow instead of feeding them to animals, the world's food shortage will disappear virtually overnight. Remember that 100 acres of land will produce enough beef for 20 people but enough wheat to feed 240 people.

Every day, tens of millions of one-day-old male chicks are killed because they will not be able to lay eggs. There are no rules about how this mass slaughter takes place. Some are crushed or suffocated to death. Many are used for fertiliser or fed to other animals.

Animals who die for your dinner table die alone, in terror, in sadness and in pain. The killing is merciless and inhumane.

It's must easier to become (and stay) slim if you are a vegetarian. (By 'slim', I do not mean 'abnormally slender' or 'underweight' but rather, an absense of excess weight!)

Half the rainforests in the world have been destroyed to clear ground to graze cattle to make beefburgers. The burning of the forests contributes 20% of all green-house gases. Roughtly 1,000 species a year become extinct because of the destruction of the rainforests.

Approximately 60 million people a year die of starvation. All those lives could be saved because those people could eat grain used to fatten cattle and other farm animals - if Americans ate 10% less meat.

The world's fresh water shortage is being made worse by animal farming. And meat producers are the biggest polluters of water. It takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce one pound of meat.

If the US meat industry wasn't supported by the taxpayer paying a large proportion of its water costs, then hamburger meat would cost $35 a pound.

If you eat meat, you are consuming hormones that were fed to the animals. No one knows what effect those hormones will have on your health. In some parts of the world, as many as one on four hamburgers contain growth hormones that were originally given to cattle.

The following diseases are commoner among meat eaters: anaemia, appendicitis, arthritis, breast cancer, cancer of the colon, cancer of the prostrate, constipation, diabetes, gallstones, gout, high blood pressure, indigestion, obesity, piles, strokes and varicose veins.

Lifelong vegetarians visit hospital 22% less often than meat eaters and for shorter stays.

Vegetarians have a 20% lower blood cholestrol level than meat eaters and this reduces heart attack and cancer risks considerably.

Some farmers use tranquillisers to keep animals calm. Other routinely use antibiotics to starve off infection. When you eat meat you are eating those drugs. In America, 55% of all antibiotics are fed to animals and the percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin went up from 14% in 1960 to 91% in 1988.

In a lifetime, the average meat eater will consumer 36 pigs, 36 sheep and 750 chickens and turkeys. Do you want that much carnage on your conscience?

Animals suffer from pain and fear just as much as you do. How would you like to spend your last hours locked in a truck, packed into a cage with hundreds of other terrified animal and then cruelly pushed into a blood soaked death chamber. Anyone who eats meat condones and supports the way animals are treated.

Animals which are a year old are often far more rational - and capable of logical thought - than six week old babies. Pigs and sheep are far more intelligent than small children. Eating dead animals is barbaric.

Vegetarians are fitter than meat eaters. many of the world's most successful athletes are vegetarian.

onmyfeet · 30/01/2011 03:31

Only read the OP, so far.

Many people find eating flesh repulsive.
Same as seeing leather furniture and boots etc. , clothing, reminder of the holocaust and the lamp shapes made of human flesh.

onmyfeet · 30/01/2011 03:31

threefeethighandrising, great post above me!

CheerfulYank · 30/01/2011 03:50

I do eat meat, but try not to eat animals from "factory farms".

ZuzuandZara · 30/01/2011 08:04

Mutznutz, you're wrong.
Regarding cows for dairy industry, I take your point.
I have not eaten a pig for 20 years.
I have not eaten a chicken bred for eating for 20 years (completely different industry than hens for eggs)
I have not eaten a lamb for 20 years

Therefore less pigs, chickens and lambs have been slaughtered.
Times that by all the veggies. Less animals slaughtered.

I will try to be vegan one day, but in the meantime I will certainly stick as veggie, because I am doing my bit.

Threefeedhighandrising. Great post.

TandB · 30/01/2011 08:41

I once heard a story about a vegetarian convention where it descended into a physical brawl between the vegetarians the vegans and the whatever you call the people who only eat things that fall from the tree. I didn't really believe it at the time, but these threads are making me give it a little more credibility.

There has been a suggestion on the thread that if you aren't going to be a vegan you should eat meat as you aren't doing it properly. There has been a suggestion that not eating meat is absolutely worthless in terms of reducing animal slaughter.

I don't like meat. I don't like the taste. I don't like the texture. I don't like the idea that I am eating flesh. I always had a bad reaction to the small amount of meat I did eat.

If it is quite all right with all the busy bodies I will carry on not eating meat even though I am clearly some sort of hypocrite or doing so.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 30/01/2011 11:06

I think not wanting to eat anything that was once alive is a good enough reason for not doing so. It doesn't have to actually make a World Difference.

I eat meat but I understand that there are people who do not want to eat living creatures. It's a personal choice. Some people don't want to eat anything that once had a face. Fair enough.

clevercloggs · 30/01/2011 11:33

the best tasting stuff once had a face :o

midsummerfairycichlid · 30/01/2011 11:52

There's more suffering in a glass of milk than in a portion of steak, I'd much prefer to come back next time as beef cattle than a milk cow. Milk is effectively liquid veal: to consume milk is to contribute just as much to the suffering of the veal industry as eating it directly.

The problem is not the abuse of animals in agriculture, it is the fact we are breeding and exploiting them for human use and profit in the first place. Any use of a sentient creature who can feel pain and psychological anguish and distress is unjust and morally wrong. If I wouldn't wish to choose to change places with a dairy cow or laying hen, I shouldn't participate in those industries by consuming animal products.

"There is nothing extreme about ethical veganism.

What is extreme is eating decomposing flesh and animal secretions.

What is extreme is that we regard some animals as members of our family while, at the same time, we stick forks into the corpses of other animals.

What is extreme is thinking that it is morally acceptable to inflict suffering and death on other sentient creatures simply because we enjoy the taste of animal products or because we like the look of clothes made from animals.

What is extreme is that we say that we recognize that ?unnecessary? suffering and death cannot be morally justified and then we proceed to engage in exploitation on a daily basis that is completely unnecessary.

What is extreme is pretending to embrace peace while we make violence, suffering, torture and death a daily part of our lives.

What is extreme is that we excoriate people like Michael Vick, Mary Bale and Sarah Palin as villains while we continue to eat, use, and consume animal products.

What is extreme is that we say that we care about animals and that we believe that they are members of the moral community, but we sponsor, support, encourage and promote ?happy? meat/dairy labeling schemes.

What is extreme is not eating flesh but continuing to consume dairy when there is absolutely no rational distinction between meat and dairy (or other animal products). There is as much suffering and death in dairy, eggs, etc., as there is in meat.

What is extreme is that we are consuming a diet that is causing disease and resulting in ecological disaster.

What is extreme is that we encourage our children to love animals at the same time that we teach them those that they love can also be those whom they harm. We teach our children that love is consistent with commodification. That is truly extreme?and very sad.

What is extreme is the fantasy that we will ever find our moral compass with respect to animals as long as they are on our plates and our tables, on our backs, and on our feet.

No, ethical veganism is not extreme. But there are many other things that we do not even pay attention to that are extreme."
(Source: www.abolitionistapproach.com )

Being vegan is actually really easy, with a whole world of new flavour combinations and recipes. I find I'm eating a much wider, more adventurous range of foodstuffs than when I ate meat. That's with only having access to the mainstream supermarkets and in probably the least veggie-friendly part of the UK. It has really revolutionised my love of great food & cooking.

Here's a great vegan cooking website I recommend:
www.theppk.com/recipes