to think that surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie?

[LadyOfTheManor]

Seriously, unless you're a miner or from a mining family, or Welsh... ok well even if you are, surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie T?

I'm a tad young, I was born in her "reign", but I did my degree in Politics and although I didn't really live under her (it was Major until I was 11) I couldn't see what she did that was SO terrible-let alone the sheer hostility when her name is mentioned here (in Wales!).

And, as I keep repeating, I've never said the 60s were idyllic, that no progress has been made or no changes were needed. I don't want to go bak in time - my family was among the working poor and it was hard.

What I've been trying to say is that I revile the fundamental shift in our societal values that was deliberately engendered by Mrs Thatcher. I don't actually think anyone who hasn't lived through both eras can get what I'm on about, try as I might!

Anyway, I have to hide this thread (again) as it's taking up too much of my not-at-all-valuable time.

I'm middle class, went to a public school and didn't even live in the UK during the 80's.... and I still can't stand Maggie or what she did to the UK. You don't have to have suffered under her to appreciate that what she did wrecked a lot of lives and communities and the after affects are still being affected now.

Global markets would have shut the mines eventually anyway, but there was really no need for her to go after the miners with such venom, seize the union funds to stop them feeding their own and then to kick them (and everybody else) while they were down.

For those posters who are wishing that Britain was "great" again, I ask - "Great for whom?" Because for most of the time that Britain could claim to have been Great, life was pretty shite for those without the proverbial silver spoon (i.e. approximately 80% of the population)

sorry meant "after affects still being felt now"

of course he wants a state-backed trade credit insurance fund. there are bank run ones of course of varying kinds - which cost money, like credit generally does. I would sya these are run carefully, butnot too carefully. He just wants something for fre that his members currently have to pay for. If the government did have a schmee and ran it properly - it wouldn't acually offer any advantage over the private sector alternatives.

societal values - what do you mean by that?

mysogyny, rascism, homophobia and a general acceptance of low-level violence? those abounded in the 1960s.

also on that note - my time in the 1980s was spent living in a Northern village (technically part of 'greater manchester') where the term 'Jew' was regularly used as on of abuse, where as my Mum put it 'if you hadn't got relatives in the graveyard, no one would talk to you' and the local government was so over-keen on 'slum clerance' that they were evicting pensioners and knocking down their house in order to create work for ther 'friends' in contracting. The (oak-beamed, 17th century) house we lived in was subject to a demolition order! But obviously yeah, the days when people didn't move around so much to get work were so much better. And Labour councils were just so great.

tb you do recognise that the 3 day week was under Heath, not Callaghan and was primarily caused by the middle East oil crisis, not striking (although strikes added to it), don't you? It's not clear from your post, it reads as if you have compressed the seventies into+ Labour/Strikes/Bad.

I hope they put a disco floor on top of where they bury her. Because there'll be plenty of us wanting to dance on it.

a Maggie hater here....

Absolutely loathe the woman..........

She should also be applauded for her refusal to give ground to the IRA hunger striking prisoners and for negotiating the Anglo-Irish agreement

I was born and brought up in Wigan and still live here. i am not the only person round here who has a bottle of champagne ready to open when she finally pops her clogs.
Ideologically driven without any concern for the people whose lives she devastated... Cameron and Osborne sadly are just the same and once more the North of the country will bear the brunt.

I'm still waiting for all you Thatcher haters to tell all of us that admired her what you would have done to restore the country's fortunes in 1979.

4mum not just the North- my old town massively on the downturn again (BIL works for one of only 2 decent sized employers in a town of 30k and got his cards along with everyone else last week) and here in South Wales- well let's say things are looking rather bumpy!

ah, dear old Wigan, the town that would have elected a labour donkey....

you know Lancashires miners voted against the strike?

and Wigan lost its mines in the 50s/60s due to geological issues (ie, broken, thin seams, shifting, and the random old unmapped mines that were under there too).

now regenerated to some extent by the JJb sports stadium, kaarcher factory and a decent-size plastic packaging factory. Not to mention a call centre or five. And the continued existence of Gus, or whatever its called now...
so, a prime example of new industry springing up in place of old.

waits with BeenBeta

... and Candleshoe!

wow, what a good read this thread has been. On the OP's question, I have to say that it is only some idea about 'good taste' that prevents me keeping my own bottle of champers on standby. The reasons for this have pretty much been covered.

But just really needed to say,tb, your post was very interesting but like baloonslayer, I really really need to point out that you seem to have made some pretty big mistakes with your history of the seventies' strikes and their impact (I stand ready to be corrected).

Let's not forget the role of MT's friend and ally Augusto Pinochet in the Falklands War [shame].

'The economic success of the Western world is a product of its moral philosophy and practice. The economic results are better because the moral philosophy is superior. Choice is the essence of ethics: if there were no choice, there would be no ethics, no good, no evil; good and evil have meaning only insofar as man is free to choose.' (MT 1977, Zurich Economic Society)

All that morality business didn't apply to Chile of course.

And I expect she will do a good of rolling in her eventual grave as the People's Republic of China, fueled by its 'superior moral philosophy', takes over the world experiences better economic results than she might have predicted back in the early 80s, given her extremely narrow frame of reference and the flimsy but firmly held ideological underpinnings on which she built her policies and to which she clung in the face of all sense and even sanity.

She is an object lesson in the dangers of letting ideology run amok in the formation of economic and political policy.

'She is an object lesson in the dangers of letting ideology run amok in the formation of economic and political policy.'

Why did Blair and Brown admire her and continue her legacy? Why didn't they reverse the privatisations (instead of pushing for more)? Why didn't they reverse the anti-union legislation? Why didn't they build more council homes? Was it because they were continuing where Thatcher left off?

Maybe because they weren't revolutionaries as she was?

Maybe because he observed her trouncing Labour during his own early days in politics?

One good reason to profess admiration for a former leader now safely out of the limelight and reduced to harmlessness is to persuade her followers to vote for you perhaps. He had her massive unpopularity (still alive and kicking despite the Major hiatus) to thank for his huge general election win after all, so why not express admiration for her? Couldn't do him any harm...

And who are 'the heirs to Blair?' - people who saw Blair turning the tables on them; Cameron, Gove, Osborne...

The major and most glaring mistake both made is the continued snubbing of Europe in favour of American coattails.

Ironic that the lasting legacy of both was to make the opposition more electable (although the Conservatives didn't win an outright victory and probably will not enjoy the three successive terms that Labour had).

It strikes me that there are people on here who'd quite willingly drag her to the guillotine themselves, if they got the chance.

Nice work, Compassionate Socialists. Nice work indeed. Great example for your children.

The reason that Blair and Brown didn't reverse the privatisations/anti-union legislation etc was that the neoliberalism that Margaret Thatcher introduced to the country was highly successful in creating growth and prosperity. They obviously did make changes eg lack of fiscal control but the broad principles were kept by the Labour Party. Whilst the socialist ideals of nationalised industries and high taxes had lead to economic misery in the 1970s in comparison.

She should also be applauded for her refusal to give ground to the IRA hunger striking prisoners and for negotiating the Anglo-Irish agreement

Whilst I do not in any way support the methods of any terrorist organisation, you do know that many many people held in the H Blocks were interred, don't you? And that that is why they were on hunger strike?

If a government is that convinced of a persons guilt, surely they would take them to trial? Afterall, they clearly have enough evidence to consider them enough of a threat to hold them indefinitely

As I recall, there were plenty of people in her own party who would have cheerfully sunk a dagger into her throughout her political career, and some still haven't forgiven her for what she did to the Conservative Party.

yabu